Thank you for your reply, fs. I posted this at the wrong time, really. Added to which, I'm now afflicted with whatever foul disease Sabrina brought back with her from her parents in Ohio, so I'm not feeling up to my best. I am, in fact, sick as a dog and shall be going back to bed (where I've spent most of the day) very shortly.

I hope you and Sabrina have a wonderful Christmas this year, Simon!

"The world owes us nothing. It was here first."

Nice, with every bit of truth in it!

God, on the other hand, is always more than we are - and because It's more than we are It can never be anything except incomprehensible

I agree with your thinking here.

A magickian of this sort, when enaged in what they refer to as 'the great work' is simply seeking the conversation and knowledge of their holy guardian angel.

Intriguing and scary at the same time!

I agree with you here. Mark 13:32 clearly suggests that he cannot be fully G-D.

I look at Jesus as just one tiny aspect of G-D. Just like Vitamin D from the sun. Although Vitamin D has its importance in by no means defines the sun.



I want to briefly compare and contrast somethings here.

One of the things I see with the majority of faiths are, "if I name it, I can claim it. " I see this very prominently in Pagan religions as well as the more familiar Christianity. Majority of these begin with 'selfish' origination. The 'order of operation' here begins with the person then they petition to god(s) in order to obtain what they desire. The problem I see with this is that obtaining the ability to 'order' a god elevates one above their god as they can some how manipulate it/them.

In contrast...

I was reading the book of Joshua this morning and noticed that the 'order of operation' begins with G-D and not with Joshua. In order for Joshua to be used as a tool by G-D he was given the instructions of obeying the Torah of Moses. It was upon that agreement that G-D would make him great because G-D could then use him not Joshua to use G-D to get what he (his flesh) wanted.

Just my thoughts.

You do a good job describing "tool" and "end", but what does faith mean? What is faith?

EOIC WRITES:


Faith, at least according to my definition, is neither a tool or an end. Faith alone does not justify, so it cannot be an end. It's not a tool becasue faith isn't something we use per se.

Given a desire for the truth, faith is an act of the intellect based on rational motives of credibility that will stand any test. Faith is a divine virtue by which we firmly (without the slightest doubt) believe all truths which God has revealed.

Revealed means what has been made known to us. Revelation is a collection of all the truths God has made known to us. Why do we believe----becasue God reveals it even though we cannot see it or even understand it. If we see it plainly then we believe it rather because we see it than becasue God made it known to us.

Suppose a friend told us a house is on fire. We'd believe him if he never told us lies before, not becasue we know of the fire, but becasue he said it. Afterwards, when we read of the house fire, we we have proof of what he told us, but we believe him just as firmly as when he initially told us as when we learned of it from reading the newspaper.

In the same way, God tells us of His truths, we believe them becasue we know that since God is infinitely true, He cannot deceive us or be deceived. But if afterwards, by studying and thinking we find proof that God told us the truth, we don't believe with any greater faith, for we always believed without doubting.

Suppose some other person was present when we were told the house was on fire and that person wouldn't belive him. We'd try to convince him that what he said was true by showing him the account in the newspaper. So, learning does not change our faith, becasue faith is not acquired but is infused in our souls by God. This is why even little children who hear of God and what He taught has as good and strong faith as his teacher who has studied all the reasons why he should believe.

Rational supernatural faith of Christianity is more than mere feeling or emotional sentiment that comes from the excesses of revival meetings. It's an intellectual act guided by an upright will and aided always by God's grace.

Faith alone does not justify, so it cannot be an end

The end of an act is not the justification of an act. 'Justification', in the sense you use it, identifies a particular facet of Christian theology that has nothing to do with with 'ends' in the sense in which I used the term. Justification is a status assigned us by another (God) as a consequence of faith in Jesus Christ. 'Justification' is the consequence of an act. The act in question is 'faith', which is nothing more than an expression of will. Faith has an end, which is Redemption, of which Justification is a part. The 'end' of faith is found in its completion, its consummation, which is Redemption. Therefore, faith has an end.

faith is an act of the intellect based on rational motives of credibility that will stand any test.

Nonsense.

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If 'rational principle' is a way of seeing, comprehending and organizing the world, which it plainly is - your own comment implying as much - then just as plainly faith is not to be found in it. Because the substance of faith is hope for what is not seen but is believed on.

EOIC WRITES:

Lula posts:

Note, here, even though we're looking at faith differently, we seem to agree that faith is not an end.

But here you come to a different conclusion:

EOIC POSTS:





Why is this nonsense? Faith isn't emotional, blind submission to the unknown. Rather, Faith is an intellectual assent of the mind to something not seen with the physical eye; the acceptance of a truth upon the authority of someone else. In Christianity, it's Divine authority, taking God at His word.

From this as I said before, Christianity begins with DIvine fiath that will not, in fact, cannot deceive. Seeing that man wholly depends upon God as his Creator, and seeing that created reason is entirely subject to the Uncreated Truth, we are bound to submit by faith our intellect and will to God the Revealer. But this faith which is the beginning of man's salvation, is a supernatural virtue, whereby with the help of GOd's grace, we believe what He reveals, not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by natural light of our reason, but on account of the authority of God who can neither deceive or be deceived.



Thanks, Ock. I sure am "just fine". Ock, would it surprise you to learn that the celebration of Christmas is not about Christ's birthday, but our Savior was born to redeem you and me? It was when God "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us". Yesterday, while the world celebrated New Year's Day, Catholics celebrated the feast of the circumcision of our Lord. "His name was called Jesus and He is marked as a victim for sacrifice. Thus does a New Year begin. Christ sheds a few drops of His precious Blood as a pledge of His complete bloodshedding later one. Christ will take our government ...upon His shoulder. Now it can be said, all the ends of the earth have seen salvation. He gave Himself to redeem us..you and me.

Now, Ock, I don't know about your area of the world, but in mine, the sky was perfectly clear and filled with stars one especially bright in the East. It's not a big mental leap for me to see something as beautiful as this at this time of year and harken back to the Holy Bible's description on the miraculous Star that guided the Magi to the newborn King.

I imagine some of you will cavil at miraculous stars and royalty seeking Wise men and your problem is with everything the Bible contains. My faith accepts the premise in which it's written...that God moves in history...nothing within it is impossible...and all of it hangs together beautifully. The Church celebrates this year in and year out now for over 2,000 years. What is the meaning of life and why are we here in the world? Why is there something rather than nothing? The answer that fits better than anything else is the one that begins, "God so loved the world..."

The miracles aren't the object of faith, they are only signs of it.

You don't much like my fire analogy in understanding faith. How about this one...You are driving down the road, and see a sign that says, Entering Vail, Colorado. If it's a true sign, you have faith that you know where you are.

And then you cited scientific "facts" about the sun. Both Christianity and science demand belief by faith and study. Some kind of faith precedes all study. Whereas Christianity begins with Divine faith, science begins with human faith that is fallible. Science is like Christianity, begins with truths which will never be fully understood. Take electricity. Its has natural mysteries yet its manifestations prove it's existence. Electricity, like the sun and stars and "The heavens show forth the glory of God and the firmament decalreth the works of His hands."

Science is knowing how GOd works in natural order, Faith is knowing how God works in supernatural order. Faith teaches things so profound that they are above reason. Faith in both true religion, Christianity, and true science doesn't teach anything opposed to reason or to those sound principles to reason rightly.

Ock posts:


In science, it is dependence upon human authority that may or may not be right despite its personal integrity. When the faith of science is accepted, and not the faith of Christianity, it is wise to recall the words of Saint John. "If we accept the testimony of man, the testimony of God is greater."

I don't know what your stance is on human origins. For those who believe in Darwin's Evolution and random chance is their creator, then what are the observable facts to believe that their ancestors evolved from apes?

You all are making this infinitely more difficult than it needs to be.

One wishes to abandon herself to God, in the form of Jesus Christ. Another wishes to follow the Noble Truths (or is that 'Truth'? I can never remember). Another wishes to be obedient to the Prophet and his revelation. Go right ahead.

In exactly the same degree that these various faiths are true, so are they equally false. And we all get exactly what it is we've imagined and had faith in, at the end. Dante said something interesting, in the early Cantos of the Inferno. In relation, I believe, to the Virtuous Pagans whom he placed in Limbo, a place neither of Heaven nor Hell but suited to the likes of those who find in human reason everything necessary in order to live a good life. He said, if I remember correctly, that they had not the charity to abandon themselves to something that could not be discerned by their reason, but which was implied by that reason.

If you've been taught from the cradle that God made you, it's a leap of charity to believe that, in fact, you made god, and made it in your own image. It's an even greater leap to believe that God, as opposed to the gods, is at once the Source of everything - and indifferent to the outcome of everything save in a purely aesthetic sense.

By all means continue to believe in the things you believe. So long as enough of you believe, and believe hard enough, with sufficient sincerity, your gods will continue to exist and behave just as you want them to. They'll save the Righteous and damn the Sinner - or lead you into the bliss of Nirvana, if that's what you require of them. And so long as you continue to debate, and refute each other, and by doing so reinforce in your own minds the things you believe in, for just so long as enough of you do these things your gods will continue to be 'real' and 'true'.

But one day they'll all die. Just as Ra, and Odin, and Jupiter, and Zeus, and Loki, have all died - because the human sensibility that found a need for them, and created them in its image, has died. That sensibility can resurrected in a sense. It can be invoked, and used as a template, to serve the will of the Magickian at his need and pleasure. But it has no greater reality than the reality of his will, just as previously it had no greater reality than the faith of those who believed gave to it.

You make your own Heaven, your own Hell. And those rewards and punishments in which you believe are those which you will eventually receive.

Ah the basis of control based religion.

Lula: Try reading some literature not produced by the CC.

Evolution theory is not based on chance. They made it over such a long period of time that chance didn't enter into it. Given 10 years, evolution is a terrible theory, as there would have to be a mutation within those 10 years. Less likely then a mutation over billions of years.

If you roll dice one, the chance of getting at least one 2 is very low. But as you add more roles, the probability approaches 100%. Given a billion years of dice rolls (fun fact: a billion years is the standard playing time for a game of Monopoly with the free-parking house rule) there is still a very low chance of not ever getting a 2, but the chance is nearing 100% that at least one 2 occurs.

Of course, the metaphor breaks down because the number they're trying to get on 2 6-sided dice is 1. A 0% probability with any number of occurences is still 0%.