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Google betrays own philosophy

helps China to "do evil"

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January 25, 2006 11:00:52 AM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
"In order to operate from China, we have removed some content from the search results available on google.cn, in response to local law, regulation or policy. While removing search results is inconsistent with Google's mission, providing no information (or a heavily degraded user experience that amounts to no information) is more inconsistent with our mission."


What happened to "do no evil"? I'm very dissapointed in Google over this.
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Cordelia
Join Date 07/2002
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Reply #1 January 25, 2006 11:14:54 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
That is dissapointing, I agree, but what can they do? I don't think they could operate in China otherwise.
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Cordelia
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Reply #2 January 25, 2006 11:19:48 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Although they did take a stand here in the States on not handing over information the government has asked for. http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,70055-0.html?tw=wn_tophead_11


I guess they know their audience.

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Voyager9
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Reply #3 January 25, 2006 11:57:17 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There is a difference between "do no evil" and "obey the laws of the country your operating in".
I agree that the outcome is disappointing, but it is hardly surprising. Google didn't really have a leg to stand on here, if they want to do buisiness in China, they have to obey China's laws. If they take a stand, China tells 'em to F' off.
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Reply #4 January 25, 2006 12:58:06 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
It certainly would be nice if one of the big boys had the cojones to tell Chine to F' off.

No ethical company can help China enforce its censorship
No company that does not help China enforce its censorship can do business in China
THEREFORE
No ethical company can do business in China

If enough so-called 'ethical' companies followed this logic it might give China some incentive to come out of the dark ages.
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Reply #5 January 25, 2006 1:00:26 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There is a difference between "do no evil" and "obey the laws of the country your operating in".


In China, it's not possible for Google to do both of those things. To obey Chinese law is evil.
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Dr Guy
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #6 January 25, 2006 2:02:04 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Unfortunately, it is as Voyager says.  I doubt Google likes it, but like Microsoft, they see big dollar signs in China and so do not want to piss off the government.
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CaptainWin
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Reply #7 January 25, 2006 2:36:13 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
A bigger concern should be why does Google record and store permanently all of your searches and movements you do on the site.

Posted via WinCustomize Browser/Stardock Central
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kona0197
Join Date 02/2003
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Reply #8 January 25, 2006 2:52:22 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Although they did take a stand here in the States on not handing over information the government has asked for.


Every search engine should have done the same.
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ParaTed2k
Join Date 12/2004
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Reply #9 January 25, 2006 3:17:18 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
How dare the government of China insist companies follow their laws when doing business in their country, don't they know anything?

What next, are they going to insist that cars made for import to China be made to Chinese specifications? Wouldn't it be just terrible if Google gave in to China's demands and actually published the search engine and search results in the languages and dialects of China!!!

What else are they going to do, just close up shop in any country that has laws contrary to their "philosophy"?
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Reply #10 January 25, 2006 4:55:09 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If the penalty for doing what's right is being required to close up shop, then a moral person has to close up shop. If there was something morally wrong about Chinese car specifications (I don't know, maybe the shock absorbers have to be made out of dead kittens), then I would expect companies to simply refuse to make cars for the Chinese market.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #11 January 25, 2006 5:11:12 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

If the penalty for doing what's right is being required to close up shop, then a moral person has to close up shop.

The critical part here is "a moral person".  Companies are amoral entities, and not persons.

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Jafo
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Reply #12 January 25, 2006 5:54:05 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

Google doesn't care about truth/accuracy in search results....just so long as their 'system' is all-pervasive.

If that means being less 'accurate' in China to keep the locals happy....well....the billions of potential mind-slaves to their philosophy/ethos is worth more than the minor blip on their radar of being outed for modding results...for whatever reason, governmental or insidious.

First rule....saturate...

Second rule....dominate...

Third rule....insinuate.

If you think MS is an autonomous monopoly....wait till you see what happens when one entity controls information dissemination....

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Jafo
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Reply #13 January 25, 2006 6:01:44 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

Think selective filtering......you search for 'cars' but strangely only 'Fords' show up.....

Of course it will be way more subtle than that....

Though it all depends on how much moolah is being paid ...for this 'selectivity'....

And people think the sun shines out of Google's arse.....

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Kevin_C
Join Date 11/2002
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Reply #14 January 25, 2006 6:23:19 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Although they did take a stand here in the States on not handing over information the government has asked for


The only thing Google is protecting in this is themselves. They are concerned that if they turn over the results being asked for that their competitors would somehow glean a glimpse of how their search algorithms rate pages. This is afterall the *only* way google makes money, so for them turning this over could potentially have a much greater effect than the other companies who have other means of making income. Don't think for one minute that google gives a plugged nickel about you or I. All they care about is the almighty dollar and their stock holders profit margins. Besides, the data being gathered it completely anonymous, it is nothing more than a list of results that were returned based on certain search criteria. Nothing about the person or computer who made the search. The government could care less about those details, they just want to try and prove that (surprise, surprise) there's porn on the net and sometimes it comes up when you search for innocuous terms.
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PJ_
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Reply #15 January 25, 2006 7:17:55 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The critical part here is "a moral person". Companies are amoral entities, and not persons.


True enough. And I know that, of course. I was thinking of this article even as I wrote the post. I think this quote from the article is relevant here:

(By the way, I suspect that the increasing personification of corporations might turn out to be their Achilles’ heel. The more society buys into the myth that companies are real people, the more we expect them to adhere to human-like standards of ethical behavior. People like me would allow corporations to get away with murder, because we expect nothing better. It’s the people who get shocked when they discover that designer-label clothing is manufactured for ten cents an hour by children in China who cause trouble for a brand’s image and force companies to improve their behavior.)


I guess I can't help but be a bit disappointed when an entity that purports to be moral ("do no evil") turns out to be otherwise. Oh well.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #16 January 25, 2006 7:35:39 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

I guess I can't help but be a bit disappointed when an entity that purports to be moral ("do no evil") turns out to be otherwise. Oh well.

Excellent quote.  But amoral is not Immoral.  Amoral is without morals and that they are.  But yes, we do try to personify companies and project our morals on them.  It seldom works.

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starkers
Join Date 05/2004
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Reply #17 January 25, 2006 8:34:26 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
12# Right on, Jafo....now that's calling a spade a spade.
Google makes the so- called 'evil empire' look like saints

And people think the sun shines out of Google's arse...


Not me, not now, not ever! Don't trust Google and have none of their products/services on my machine....which has me curious as to why I get a "connecting to Google diagnostics" dialogue flashing on my progress bar when experiencing timeouts and/or server errors when logged on to WC (only page open) and trying to change pages, etc? Something's not right there...Google has never been invited into my machine, yet its diagnostics dept is connecting me to them.
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Jafo
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Reply #18 January 25, 2006 10:43:32 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

So....

Now...to keep the Commies happy......Tienamin Square will NOT have happened...cos Google won't give the links.....

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Jafo
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Reply #19 January 25, 2006 10:47:09 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

One day...when omnipotence becomes all-consuming....it 'may' become expedient to keep the Japanese happy...at the expense of a few old idiots who remember WW2....and determine [via censorship....sorry...selective linking] that Pearl Harbour was NOT an unprovoked attack.

I can hear the faint bleatings of outrage at that one.....

Suckers, one and all.

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kona0197
Join Date 02/2003
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Reply #20 January 26, 2006 1:41:37 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
That will never happen Jafo. America never forgets such things.
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ParaTed2k
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Reply #21 January 26, 2006 2:00:28 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If the penalty for doing what's right is being required to close up shop, then a moral person has to close up shop. If there was something morally wrong about Chinese car specifications (I don't know, maybe the shock absorbers have to be made out of dead kittens), then I would expect companies to simply refuse to make cars for the Chinese market.


You have to do better than that. China didn't insist that google harm anyone or anything, they only insisted that some content not be included in searches. To tell you the truth, I'd love it if I could do a search for (say) "Blow Guns" without getting 100,000 hits for porn for every 1 hit on Blow Guns.

((((But no, I wouldn't support the U.S. Government mandating anything to make that happen).
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Fuzzy Logic
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Reply #22 January 26, 2006 2:00:44 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

How dare the government of China insist companies follow their laws when doing business in their country

Yes, how dare they start behaving like Americans...

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PJ_
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Reply #23 January 26, 2006 2:07:29 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Banning "freedom" and "human rights" from people's vocabulary is harmful.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #24 January 26, 2006 2:09:12 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Banning "freedom" and "human rights" from people's vocabulary is harmful.


Yes, and thank god we still have laws against that. As does most of the world. Sadly, china has not matured that much yet.
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Adamness
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Reply #25 January 26, 2006 4:09:39 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Google is a public company. They have to make money. To not do business with China would simply be foolish.

So many people here seem to be anti-business, and anti-government at the same time. I don't get it.
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