preacherman

Join Date 11/2004

Is Capital Punishment Non-Christian?

What is the responsibility of our government?

Is capital punishment Non-Christian?

We’ve all heard it before………

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
Turn the other cheek
He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.

So where does all of this fit when we are talking about the law/government’s responsibility in protecting a society?

“For the rulers is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same: for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth the sword in vain, for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” Romans 13:3-4

Should the government (law) be a liberty to take life; even if it means protecting the good and innocent in our society?

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Jesus said that he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it. Unfortunately how some details were effected is kind of fuzzy to anyone who isn't confident in the heinously subjective interpretations of Paul and other New Testement authors from modern scholars.

I beleve capital punishment has it's foundations in Bibilical law, and nothing Jesus did or said overwrote it. The situation with the adulterous woman was a trap set for Him by His enemies. Had Jesus spoken either way, He would have been in violation of either Hebrew or Roman law.

Nations can't turn the other cheek, because they aren't turning they own cheeks, rather they turn the cheeks of the people they are sworn to protect. When I forgo wrath and forgive my neighbor for his violence against me, I risk only myself. When the government does it, they risk us all.

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confident in the heinously subjective interpretations of Paul and other New Testement authors from modern scholars.

can you expound these thoughts bakerstreet?

What about Romans 13:3-4? How far should a government go to protect their good?

preacherman

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I simply don't believe in killing, but I'm not Christian, so I think it's wrong whether it's Christian or not

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"can you expound these thoughts bakerstreet?"

Sure. Ministers twist mandates intended for the people of the cities that, say, Paul sent letters to, and apply them to people everywhere. I have heard ministers use Paul's letters to denounce long hair on men, sueing people in court, women speaking aloud in church, how it is wrong to divorce someone UNLESS they are an unbeliever, etc., etc...

Paul says "I" a lot. He even says things like "But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment." in places. Paul took care to speak of himself when he was giving his opinion, and making it clear when it was outright commandment, but to some people anything that fell out of Pauls mouth was a commandment to us today.

"What about Romans 13:3-4? How far should a government go to protect their good?"

I think you overlooked the context of your quote:

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Also:

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right." 1 Peter 2:13,14

***

I don't see our government executing people to protect their own interests. There are very, very few crimes you can be put to death for in America, and the vast majority are intended to protect the public good. As I said before, turning the other cheek is a private affair. For the government to do so is neglecting their duty to protect us.

I don't have as much problem with Christians differing with WHY people are put to death. This is a democracy, and we all have the right to play our part. To say that capital punishment is against God or something, though, ignores the fact that Jesus took part in an actual execution, and didn't say anything about it, not for himself or the two that were killed with him.

It also overlooks the many mandates for capital punishment in the Old testament. Now, as with Paul, God was talking to the Hebrews, I realize, and while I don't think many of those offenses should now carry the death penalty, it is hard for me to understand how the death penalty is inherantly wrong, itself.

That's the long and short of it for me. Sure, the circumstances of who should be executed may have changed. Our attitude toward their souls and the taking of their lives may have changed, but God doesn't change, and if God at one point sanctioned the death penalty, I doubt that it suddenly became the wrong thing to do.

Maybe we should look harder at why, and the evidence needed, etc. I have no problem with that. But to say it is wrong, outright, seems counter to what we know of God from the Bible.

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Nations can't turn the other cheek, because they aren't turning they own cheeks, rather they turn the cheeks of the people they are sworn to protect

Just because you don't execute someone does not mean they go without punishment, and a nation can protect it's citizens without executions. Also, I think a lot of Christians (whether it be Pastors, Priests or members)are picking and choosing within the Bible to fit their needs. Interpretations are conveniently changed with the times. I mean if we were to talk everything in the Bible literally slavery would not be outlawed.

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1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

enigmagnetic, these versus are taken from the Word of God, 13th chapeter of Romans and is where some believers in Christ feel that capital punishment is ok if ordained by the goernment of the land.

Consider this, God instructed His people to bring a man & woman taken in adultery and stone them to death- Deut.17:5-7
He also instruted the parents of a stubborn and rellious son to bring them before populace and stone him to death- Deut.21:18-21

Sounds pretty barbaric, doesn't it? Why would He command such a thing, do you think?

preacherman

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"Sounds pretty barbaric, doesn't it? Why would He command such a thing, do you think?"

I'd be interested in hearing your answer for that, pm, if you don't get a reply.

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You know how it is Baker, there are many times that we read things in God's word, and by all admissions don't understand why God did things the way he did. An issue I had a problem with was God not allowing Moses to enter the promise land after all that he had put up with. Do you know what I mean? One might would say who are you to question why and what God does. I have found it ok to say it and discuss it, because if we think anything in our heart, He already knows it. One thing we must never forget, His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts and chances are they (His ways) are enmity to our minds until the Spirit of God gives us understanding.

So it was with the two portions of God's Word in Deuteronomy. I can remember the first time I read it, I said man, God is pretty tuff, and I must admit I thought within my own heart God is much to critical and in the common vernacular "pretty barbaric". After giving considerable thought and prayer to this portion of God's Word I think I have a better undersanding of why he said do it this way.

We must look at two very important verses that go with the scripture that I posed.

The purpose of God's commandsDeut. 17:7 "put the evil away from among you"Deut. 21:21 "all of Israel shall hear and fear"

After careful consideration, I think God is right. If we don't put evil away from among us, it will only wax worse. I think we are seeing it today all across our society. When evil is allowed to roam the streets of our communities, the good become their prey.

We think today that capital punishment does not deter crime. God says that when the nation Israel hears and sees evil judged, they shall fear. So when we convince ourselves that capital punishment does not deter crime, in essence we are saying we know more than God and guess what, we see how right God is. Look what is happening in our schools, homes, etc.... It truly is waxing worse.

I must point out Baker, I don't think it is the churches responsibility to meet out this judgement, but I do believe if a government is going to protect good, it must punish evil.

What do you think?

preacherman

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I'm shocked, confused, befuzzled. I actually agreed with everything you said... LOL

A lot of people consider prison as "putting evil away", but frankly I think it is just putting it to the side. Worse, it seems to fester and get more violent and evil over time when housed with its kind. Keeping murderers, child molesters, etc., in prisons seems to me akin to keeping poison in your house that you don't need, and validating it by just putting it up on a higher shelf.

The points I am sure we would differ on are the "why"s that God did a lot of those confusing things. Like I said before, though, I think it is a personal responsibility to come to that kind of understanding.

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I'm shocked, confused, befuzzled. I actually agreed with everything you said...

Okay, this is a dirty trick. Is this really Baker?

You realize many would think we are un-Christian for believing such.

Peace my friend
preacherman

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"You realize many would think we are un-Christian for believing such.

Absolutely, but then I am accustomed to such, LOL... I think you have more to worry about being seen in my company than me being seen in yours.

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