The Birth of The Whore

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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The Birth of The Whore

The Whore of Babylon

Does the name Nimrod ring a bell?

Nimrod was a mighty hunter, of men's souls the saying goes, living after the days of Noah and the great flood. You can find the biblical story in Genesis 11 but there is also much more written outside the pages of the bible and quite easily attainable. Nimrod was a leader, one who established his own kingdom, its chief city being Babel or Babylon. His goal was to unify the people to follow his lead in a revolt against God as they attempted to build a tower of worship to the sun.

Of course, God stepped in, confused their language and the people scattered settling around the globe as He intended in the first place.

She mourned his death for many days and miraculously he was resurrected (now a counterfeit resurrection). When he was resurrected he was resurrected as Nimrod in the flesh. Sound familiar? This became the beginning of a counterfeit religious pagan system and can be verified easily enough. Just google any of the names involved and you will see the writings behind it.

The Harlot is not just a harlot now. She has now given birth and has become the mother of Harlots to many other pagan religions started right here with the family of Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz manifesting itself in many other false mother/child religious systems throughout all history.

In Egypt we had the mother/son of Iris and Osiris

In Assyria we had the mother/son of Ishtar and Bacchus

In India we had the mother/son of Isi and Iswara

In Asia we had the mother/son of Cybele and Deoius

In Greece we had the mother/son of Aphrodite and Eros

And in Rome we had the mother/son of Venus and Cupid.

Cupid? Yes, the cute little angel with the arrows we celebrate on Valentine's Day. The names and places may have changed but it's all the same mother and son worship that started with the family of Nimrod. Sounds innocent especially when you think of Cupid who is associated with love. Cupid is none other than Nimrod resurrected and is always seen with a bow and arrow. Remember Nimrod was a mighty hunter of what? Men's souls.

"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven and to pour out drink offerings to other gods that they may provoke me to anger."

The prophet Ezekiel during this same time period recorded his vision writing this:

"Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north and behold there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Then said he to me, Have you seen this, O son of man? turn you yet again and you shall see greater abominations than these." Ezek 8:14-15

The Jews had prostituted themselves away from God by such worship. In the Temple of God itself they were found worshipping Tammuz the son of Semiramis. The Jews were warned repeatedly to stop and turn back to God by Jeremiah yet they did not heed the Prophet's words. They were eventually exiled to Babylon even as Jeremiah wept over his homeland knowing their outcome. Their temple was smashed and the altar ruined.

So in effect God gave them what they wanted. He gave them captivity in a land of idolatry for seventy years. The principle of reaping and sowing was in full swing. We always reap more than what we sow and we always reap after a measurable amount of time after we sow. It may not be right away but it will eventually come to fruition.

This exile seems to have worked because after the Jews returned from Babylon, idolatry has not been a problem since for the Jewish people.

The Catholic church has drunk deeply and eagerly from the golden cup that Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots clutched in her hand. The Reformers who recognized this lost their very lives trying to disassociate and break with Rome's idolatrous practices with the same mother/child worship perpetuated by their own Mother Church.

All over the globe we can still see the shrines to "Mary, Queen of Heaven" and her son. The Reformers mistakenly believed that Rome was the Mother of harlots spoken by John in his book of Revelation, but who could blame them? It's written that the Harlot is drunken with the blood of the saints. As these Reformers (saints) went to their stakes kindled by the pages of their bibles and set ablaze by the RCC they had no idea that Rome was just another harlot in a long line born to the Mother of Harlots.

The Mother Harlot got her beginnings way back at the foot of the Tower of Babel and those who drank from her cup were scattered all over the world. Every religion, every idolatrous observance and every attempt of man-made worship can be traced back to Babylon, the Harlot's birthplace. She was well matured before Rome ever came on the scene and even now continues to "sit on many waters."

The RCC, is not by far, the only religion who has succumbed to the seduction of the Harlot. Many cults, Buddhism, Shintoism, Protestantism, Muhammadanism, and all the other thousands of religions have taken more than a little sip of her perpetual overflowing cup. They have become intoxicated. This intoxication is brought about by her persecution of the bride of Christ. She plays the jealous woman. Her anger is kindled against the true love of God and so she persecutes those that make up His bride.

Yes, this Harlot is a jealous woman. She represents all false religion throughout history and is still active in the persecution of all those who love God and are faithful to Him.

Throughout all of history God's people have always been persecuted by false religion coupled with godless government We are fast approaching the time that will peak in what is called by Jesus as the "great tribulation" in which the Harlot (false religious system) rides the beast (godless government) and comes after God's elect in such a way that Christ even said himself "Except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved." Matt 24.

"My people, go you out of the midst of her." Jeremiah 51:45

"Come out of her, my people." Revelation 18:4

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Now back to a few points in your article.

......Nimrod was a mighty hunter, of men's souls the saying goes,............ but there is also much more written outside the pages of the bible and quite easily attainable. Nimrod ....established his own kingdom, its chief city being Babel or Babylon.

According to ancient writings the wife of Nimrod was Semiramis. She later became known as the "queen of heaven." The story is told that after her husband died, he became a sun god and she later became impregnated by a sunbeam carrying her late husband's sperm. This, of course, would be considered a counterfeit miraculous birth. Her son's name was Tammuz.

She mourned his death for many days and miraculously he was resurrected (now a counterfeit resurrection). When he was resurrected he was resurrected as Nimrod in the flesh. Sound familiar? This became the beginning of a counterfeit religious pagan system and can be verified easily enough. .....

The Catholic church has drunk deeply and eagerly from the golden cup that Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots clutched in her hand. The Reformers who recognized this lost their very lives trying to disassociate and break with Rome's idolatrous practices with the same mother/child worship perpetuated by their own Mother Church. All over the globe we can still see the shrines to "Mary, Queen of Heaven" and her son. .............Rome was just another harlot in a long line born to the Mother of Harlots.

Ah, serving up the pagan influence fallacy. That was back in 2009 and now this:

Rome perpetuated the false religious system begun by Nimrod, founder of Babylon. That's why we see so many mother-son deities thru history. It all started with Nimrod and just manifested itself into other cultures and religions that began in Rome. Nimrod was the founder of Babylon. Rome is called Babylon by Peter himself. Why? Because Rome perpetuated the false religious system begun by Nimrod, founder of Babylon. The belief in Mary as the perpetual virgin and her co-mediatorship with her Son as enunciated by the RCC is the ultimate perpetuation of the false religious system begun by Nimrod.

So apparently you still think the same today even though it has been pointed that the Harlot is Apostate Israel and the apostate religion which is anti-Christ and anti-Christianity originally came from Jerusalem, not Rome.

So you are still intent to discredit the Church and Catholicism, particularly our honoring the Blessed Mother Mary as Queen of Heaven, which is what she rightfully is, by attempting to show similiarities between it and ancient paganism.

You charge that since Catholicism is of pagan origin and has been influenced by paganism, is therefore false. Post hoc ergo proper hoc, (after this therefore becasue of this) is a fallacy.

Your comparison of the mythical Babylonian goddess Semiramis and her son, Adonis, to Our Lord and His Mother Mary, does violence to reason and history, religious and actual.

This link gives the best and Biblical explanation why Our Blessed Mother Mary is called the Queen of Heaven. If you'll put away your anti-Catholic prejudice you see it has nothing whatsoever to do with ancient paganism.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV?feature=mhee#p/u/1/w1idK66_eD0

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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You can answer back with your "anti-Catholic" rant if it makes you feel better but it has nothing to do with truth. It's about finding truth..not about being anti-anything. You would make a terrible scientist. You disregard truth in order to substantiate your own truth which is what you wish it to be. Happens all the time.

If you wish to believe Babylon and Israel are the same. Go for it. You can't prove it by scripture. It's just bad theology. I'm sure you can twist the scriptures..ignoring others to make it say what you wish. You've been doing it all along.

I wrote plainly in this original article about the "Queen of Heaven" and how she was pagan and yet you come back with Mary being Queen of Heaven totally not getting the connection?

If you want the truth, read the scriptures in its entirety not somebody's opinion of it. I keep telling you to put away the side books and just read the plain scriptures but you refuse.

End of story.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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oh btw... On the ceiling of the Holy Sepulchre (a RCC site) in Jerusalem is a pagan portrayal; a symbol of the Sun God which has its roots in Babylon coming from Babylon's pagan culture. I saw it. That's the truth. We went to Jerusalem in May. Our leader, Marv, waited for us outside because it's all so pagan and he doesn't care to re-live it but he wanted us to see it. People were on the floor praying, wailing and touching a slab on the floor pushing and shoving to touch this slab so they may receive benefits from it. It was dark, crowded and eerie in there.

Rome and the RCC has more in common with Babylon than Israel ever did.

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 27

..... It's about finding truth..not about being anti-anything.

Really? Yet you called Mr. Pike (and me for agreeing with him) anti-Semitic. What is this? Do as I say but not as I do?

But anyway, back to a couple more points made in your article.

The Catholic church has drunk deeply and eagerly from the golden cup that Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots clutched in her hand. The Reformers who recognized this lost their very lives trying to disassociate and break with Rome's idolatrous practices with the same mother/child worship perpetuated by their own Mother Church.

All over the globe we can still see the shrines to "Mary, Queen of Heaven" and her son. The Reformers mistakenly believed that Rome was the Mother of harlots spoken by John in his book of Revelation, but who could blame them? It's written that the Harlot is drunken with the blood of the saints. As these Reformers (saints) went to their stakes kindled by the pages of their bibles and set ablaze by the RCC they had no idea that Rome was just another harlot in a long line born to the Mother of Harlots.

First you use of few verses in Genesis about Nemrod, search for Babylonian pagan coincidences and claim similiarity implies descent. Here you use Apoc. 17:6 to advance this charge.....it's not ancient pagan Rome but Christian Rome who is a harlot drunk with the blood of the saints which are the Protestant Reformers.

But what does Apoc. 17:6, The harlot is "drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" mean?

Jerusalem's judgment is an major theme of the OT and of the Apocalypse (Revelation). Chapter 17 is the description of the great harlot and the beast upon which she sits. To understand the symbolism of the great harlot go back to 17:1, "....Come I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits upon many waters." We know "the great" refers to Jerusalem and this harlot refers to Jerusalem.

Here the object of God's judgment is the city that shed the blood of saints and prophets. 16:6; 18:24. This designates Jerusalem as the harlot and St. John links the harlot with Babylon. So the names for Jerusalem include the great city, Sodom, Egypt, Babylon and here the harlot.

Jerusalem is revealed just as the Chruch would perceive her. A harlot riding the scarlet beast. The Chruch is the Bride of Christ. And we have already discussed the harlot reflects Isaias 1:21;57:8, Jeremias 2:20; 3:1-25, and Ezekiel's 16:15-39; 23:1-21 denounciations of the harlotry (idolatry) of Jerusalem.

I appreciate your explanation of Hosea but Hosea goes one step further.

Hosea married Gomer who was unfaithful to him. In spite of her infidelity Hosea never stopped loving her and eventually won her back. He saw in his own situation a pattern for the relationship between God and Israel. God was a faithful spouse to Israel, but Israel was like Gomer, a prostitute who went after false gods and fickle promises to foreign nations. Hosea's marriage to the unfaithful woman illustrates the anguish and charity of God toward Israel, the harlot. God was always ready to take Israel back and Israel, like Gomer, could return to the faithful marriage of the Covenant. To this Israel continuously responds with rebellion. 12-13. Unfortunately, Israel which imitated Gomer in her infidelity, WOULD NOT IMITATE HER REPENTANCE.

The prophecy closes with a pleas for a sincere return to God with the assurance of a pardon and favor. What he's talking about is the hope of a New Covenant based on justice, love and loyalty, which will in the very end bring about a reunion of all of the chosen people.

...................................................

The reference to the harlot "who sits upon many waters" is a reflection of Jeremias' description of the original Babylon whose destruction was a type of Jerusalem's destruction 51:13. Jerusalem was also known for its abundance source of spring water.

In 17:3, the harlot sits on a scarlet beast that had 7 heads and 10 horns. The beast is the sea beast that symbolized ancient pagan Rome. V. 6, the harlot is drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the marytrs of Jesus. The Book of Acts makes it clear that in the early days of the Church Jerusalem's religious leaders were the major persecuters of Christians.

The harlot rides the scarlet beast symbolizes Jerusalem's use of pagan. idolutrious Rome to implement their persecution of the early Christian Chruch. (Remember the Jewish leaders said we have no king but Caesar and at that moment united themselves with pagan Rome.) Jerusalem enjoyed tremendous influence within the ancient Roman Empire. Josephus writes, "the royal city Jerusalem was supreme, and presided over all the neighboring countries as the head does over the body."

Regarding Jesus' reference to the "synagogue of Satan", Judaism was a grave problem for the first century fledgling Church and it extended into the second century until the Roman emperor Hadrian quelled the revolt of Simon Bar Kochba in 135AD. In addition to 70AD, the Jews were driven out of Jerusalem again. Many migrated to Babylon where they stayed for the next thousand years.

The Jews in large part were following the Babylonian Talmud, which is a legal code written by the Pharisees in Babylon that combined the OT law and Pharisaic tradition. Many of these same Jews had become engrossed in Mysticism producing the Kabbala and the Zohar. All of the writings have one common trait. They are thoroughly anti-Christ and anti-Christianity. So, the same antagonism towards Christianity that began in the synagogue of Satan in the first century continued to brew throughout the first millenium and erupted in the second.

Christianity is seated in Christ. Judaism is seated in Jerusalem and is hostile to Jesus. Modern Judaism began once Jews threatened to expel from the synaguge anyone who accepted Jesus as the Christ. When Judaism rejected CHrist it rejected Logos as well. It took on a negative identity in that the Jews who practice Christianity cease to be part of the ethnic Jewish community while those who practice Buddhism, Krishna, Atheism, or no religion at all remain within.

Deliberate rejection of Christ is deliberate rejection of salvation. A spirit founded on rejection of Christ (Logos), can only lead to disaster. This is what Israel the state is today.

It's predicted the Jews following the Babylonian Talmud where enmity to Jesus Christ is present will become a major force in the oppression of Christianity. Some believe the Antichrist will come from the Jewish race and some believe that a new Temple will be built for Judiastic worship in Jerusalem.

So, if there is a more specific historical, apocalyptic relveance to the title Whore of Babylon, it could be said that Apoc. 17-18 is prophecying that Israel who was divorced from God for her whoredom and sent to ancient Babylon would later emigrate to Babylon from which she would come forth again in the future as one of the main persecuters and evil influences upon the Church.

Whatever the precise application of the Apocalypse, St.John's vision of the Whore of Babylon is worldwide in scope. The Anti-Christian forces have one thing in common ...to entice the Church into sin and apostasy and lead them into spiritual fornication.

That's what Jesus' warnings were about to the 7 Churches of Asia Minor. His warnings to them serve as warnings to us today.

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 27

If you wish to believe Babylon and Israel are the same. Go for it.

Yes, after study and thought and research and discussion, this is the conclusion to which I've come.

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 28

You can't prove it by scripture.

I have made a good case by Scripture. Do you want me to outline it again?

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 27

I'm sure you can twist the scriptures..ignoring others to make it say what you wish. You've been doing it all along.

Ya right. I twisted Scripture. NOT. I gave those Scriptures straight up!

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 27

I wrote plainly in this original article about the "Queen of Heaven" and how she was pagan and yet you come back with Mary being Queen of Heaven totally not getting the connection?

You know this is what upset me the most.

Semiramis. She later became known as the "queen of heaven."

Her son's name was Tammuz.

Semiramis and Tammuz manifesting itself in many other false mother/child religious systems throughout all history.

This crude, senseless connection of Seriramis as queen of heaven to the Blessed Mother as Queen of Heaven. Oh I made the connection all right.

I refuted it and that link sets the record straight. Nuff' said or shall we continue?

...................................

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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I made a very easy case showing you that the end for Babylon and the end for Israel are vastly different. No reply? Ok..what about this? What about the fact that Paul wrote:

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited; Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so ALL ISRAEL will be saved as it is written: The deliverer will come from Zion he will turn godlessness away from Jacob and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." Romans 11:25-27

You have to ignore scriptures (hundreds of them) like this to make your so called case.

Pretty clear this scripture alone debunks your Mr. Pike who puts Israel as Babylon which is clear will be destroyed NEVER to be heard from again. How can Israel be Babylon with all the scriptures saying God is protecting and/or will turn all sin/ungodliness from them and they will be reconciled to Him in the latter days? Just Israel coming into their own nation is proof of this.

Basically it comes down to this. Israel WILL BE SAVED. Babylon WILL BE DESTROYED. That's basic 101. Now deal with it. They are NOT the same. They can't be.

Onto the other...Well the fact is that the pagan goddess Semiramis was known as Queen of Heaven and is mentioned in Ezek and Jeremiah which I've included earlier. That is fact. The fact is the Catholic Church also calls Mary Queen of Heaven. That is Fact which you've corroborated.

This is an AFFRONT to God. The ONLY Queen of Heaven Biblically speaking is Pagan. That's a fact. There's NOTHING in scripture ANYWHERE where Mary is called Queen of Heaven. God is NOT married to a Queen. God is King sitting on HIS throne and WE are his bride. The believers.

NOW THINK ON THIS.... IF THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN WAS PAGAN IN SCRIPTURE WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD A CHRISTIAN CHURCH IMITATE THAT TITLE FOR THE MOTHER OF JESUS?

All you have to do is google this stuff and you'll see it's all over the place that paganism has been adopted in the RCC right from its inception. I'm not making this up.

This massive influence of Mary in the RCC system is deadly, very deadly. It's so widespread. It's idolatry and violation of the first commandment. She is in most places elevated above Christ. She's usually at the top with Jesus and God beneath her. They kiss her image, her statue, her picture, crawling on their knees doing so in some cases. They pray to her using the rosary. This is ALL PAGAN and violates scripture. Every time you pray to the father it's 10x to Mary. She gets the majority of the prayers yet Christ taught us how to pray in Matt 6. Nothing like this. The RCC says she gave birth to God and is therefore "co-redeemer" which is total blasphemy. She DID NOT give birth to God. She gave birth to his humanity. Not his deity.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 29

To this Israel continuously responds with rebellion. 12-13. Unfortunately, Israel which imitated Gomer in her infidelity, WOULD NOT IMITATE HER REPENTANCE.

Ok. If I show you scripture will you believe it? Or will you rationalize it and trample it because it doesn't fit your theory? I've already told you to read the chapter from Zechariah so I'm guessing you did not. Because had you read this scripture INSTEAD of this Mr. Pike you wouldn't have said what you just did here.

I'll give it. You chew on it.

"And I will pour out on the house of David (ISRAEL) and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me the one they have pierced and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day (end times) the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn each clan by itself with their wives by themselves... Zech 12:10-12.

This is the repentance that you say they will not imitate. Hosea like Zechariah is a prophet. His whole story with Gomer is an example of the relationship between God and Israel.

God will open their eyes (Israel) in the end and they will mourn (repent) and this will be their final Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) that was also predicted in Lev 23 in the series of the 7 feasts, this being the 6th one.

Again.. every indication is that God is reconciled with Israel in the end. Every indication is He is NOT reconciled with Babylon which he will destroy. Two diff outcomes. It's all over the place.

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 28

One day, I would love to visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher that houses the sites of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection of Our Lord. Imagine being able to be right there on this spot of the tomb of Christ. It's one of the most holy spots in the world. No wonder for all the praying, wailing and touching. Isn't that what the Jewish people do when they are at their holy site at the Western Wall?

I won't bore you with the details of its rich history, other than to say the tomb of Christ came to light when the Christian emperor Constantine instructed Macarius, the Bishop of Jerusalem to build the Church. The Church was dedicated on September 14, 335, and is described minutely by Eusebus, 260-339, Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine, apologist, Biblical exegete and one of the earliest Church historians.

Another point of interest is that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is built on ground that already at the time of Our Lord had tombs sewn on it. I'm told one can still see inside the church, in the section reserved for the Syrian Jacobites, several ancient tombs of the kokim type that are purely Jewish in style.

So you saw something which you think is a symbol of a Babylonian pagan sun-god and bam...that's your proof....this imagined similarity that Catholicism borrowed from the Babylonian cult. It's an old fallacy that's been spinning around the Protestant circles for years and years.

Same fallacy has been spinning around about the sun-image in the interior of St.Peter's Basilica. Because it's there, Protestants deduce Catholicism is from the pagan cult.

Here is the explanation.

Catholics pray a beautiful litany to the Most Holy Name of Jesus and one verse in the litany is "Jesus, Sun of justice. Have mercy on us."

The images of the Sun in these Catholic Churches are based on Scripture. Malachais speaks of the Christ as the "Sun of Justice" on the great and dreadful day. So Scripture uses the sun image for Our Lord.

DR has it "But unto you that fear my name, the Sun of justice shall arise, and health in his wings, and you shall go forth and leap like calves of the herd. And ye shall tread down the wicked when they shall be ashes under the sole of your feet in the day that I do this says the Lord of hosts."

Your version probably will have it as "...Sun of righteousness...."

Now go to St.Luke 1:78, ""Through the bowels of the mercy of our God, in which the Orient from on high hath visited us:"

The "Orient from on high" is the Sun of justice.

The reference to the Orient from on high tells us to go to Zacharais 3:9 and 6:12,

Zach. 3:8-9, "Hear O Jesus thou high priest, thou and thy friends that dwell before thee, for they are portending men: for behold I will bring my servant the ORIENT. 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Jesus: upon one stone there are seven eyes; behold I will grave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will take away the iniquity of that land in one day."

The note on what "Of my servant the ORIENT" means is Christ who according to his humanity is the servant of God is called the Orient from His rising like the sun in the east to enlighten the world.

Zach. 6:12, "And thou shalt speak to him saying: Thus said the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold a man, the ORIENT IS HIS NAME, and under him shall he spring up, and shall build a temple to the Lord.

What you saw in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and sun-image in St.Peter's Basilica has nothing whatsoever to do with Babylonian cult sun worship.

It does have everything to do with Our Lord, Sun of justice. Have mercy on us on the great and dreadful day.

If you think Catholicism comes from paganism, then you know not Catholicism, but someone's misrepresentation of it.

Some ancient pagan cults venerated a holy book as containing all religious truth (their version of sola scriptura). Some claimed to give "assurance of salvation" just as some of the Protestants sects do. Does this prove your beliefs are really an offshoot of the cults? Hardly, such similarities establish nothing. But that doesn't stop the Atheists from picking up where the Protestants left off, does it?

In the end, all attempts to prove Catholicism comes from paganism fail.

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Just want you to know this coming week is going to be a busy one for me so you know I'm not ignoring your responses.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 35

Actually there are two places that claim this piece of history. This one and another that makes much more sense and shows an empty tomb in s garden like setting.

I call them the Protestant Version and the Catholic Version.

The first is this church you speak of and it's hard to imagine this would have been the spot. It's just a slab in the middle of a church. Then we went to the outside Garden Tomb and it made it so much real for us. There we saw a hewn out tomb and right around the corner was what looked like a skull in the rock ledge. We took pictures of it. You remember the scriptures say he was crucified at the Place of the Skull? It's in a garden area and much more likely to be the spot. Of course the Catholics will continue to hug the cold dark slab in a dark building and claim it as the spot but it didn't make any sense to me or the others with us.

Neither can be substantiated totally but the guide there told us that the Garden Tomb near the place of ledge that looked like a skull is the most reasonable spot they could find anywhere in the vicinity.

Made sense to me.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 34

Same fallacy has been spinning around about the sun-image in the interior of St.Peter's Basilica. Because it's there, Protestants deduce Catholicism is from the pagan cult.

I didn't even know this. But yes many believe that not only is Catholicism's roots deeply pagan, saying it's a mixture..some say it's totally pagan. The whole mother-son worship is just the beginning.

Remember the beginning of Nimrod was sun-worship and the reason God confused the language thereby calling that place Babel.

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 8

But to call Israel the Harlot of Revelation 17 is just bad theology.

First of all..yes, Israel did play the harlot by being unfaithful to God in the OT. What you didn't mention nor did this Mr. Pike is the fact that AFTER their exile to Babylon (Babylonian 70 year captivity) they never did go back into idolatry like they did pre-exile. In other words, their playing of the Harlot had ended with their release. They had learned their lesson. But playing the harlot (small h) is a big difference than the description much later of the MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS. That's who this woman of Babylon is. Jerusalem, Israel, the Jews...etc do not fit this description. .........

That's not what Rev 17 is talking about. This is the real whore. In fact she's called the MOTHER OF HARLOTS. And that's a whole lot different than Israel who is and will always be the apple of his eye.

You’ve made 3 assertions: 1--Jerusalem/Israel doesn’t fit the description of “the harlot” or “woman of Babylon” in Apoc. 17-18. 2---Ancient Israel was a harlot but after her exile to Babylon, she learned her lesson, stayed faithful to God and His laws 3---(Unbelieving, Christ-rejecting) Israel today is and will always be the apple of God’s eye!

KFC,

You’re wrong on all three.

Starting with the pertinent passages of Apocalypse 17.

[1] ...Come, I will show thee the condemnation of the great harlot, who sitteth upon many waters, [2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they who inhabit the earth, have been made drunk with the wine of her whoredom.[3]...And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

[4] And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication. [5] And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery; Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications, and the abominations of the earth.

[6] And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration. [7] And the angel said to me: Why... wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast…

[15] And he said to me: The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sits, are peoples, and nations, and tongues.

[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest in the beast: these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire.

[18] And the woman which thou saw is the great city, which hath kingdom over the kings of the earth.

You should be able to see in Verses 1 through 18, the whoredom is accentuated by the way similar words are repeated throughout the context.

Notice "the great harlot", "a woman", "the woman" "Babylon the Great, mother of fornications", and "the woman which thou saw is the great city" are all symbols of the same thing.

Yes, some of these symbols could be interpreted to mean ancient pagan Rome, but I have to discard that because when these symbolic descriptions are put together with other Scriptural passages, Rome doesn’t fit.

For example, here's one passage that shows “the woman” doesn’t fit as ancient Rome. Verse 6...And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration. “The woman” can't be ancient Rome because St. John never, ever thought of ancient Rome "with great admiration", yet, he did have "great admiration" for ancient Jerusalem. That may have been why it was such a mystery to him.

St.John describes “a woman" on whose forehead is written “Babylon the Great” "drunk with the blood of the saints..." and was shown "a great city" which I think is ancient Jerusalem.

So, yes, while SOME these symbolic descriptions fit ancient Rome SOME of the time, they all fit Jerusalem and/or apostate Israel every time. Put these symbolic descriptions together with other Scriptural passages and these symbolic descriptions turn out to be Jerusalem and/or apostate Israel.

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 3

Nowhere in scripture is Israel ever referred to as Babylon. Zion. Yes. Babylon. Never.

You’re technically correct. But you know as well as I that The Apocalypse is to be interpreted as a set of symbols that represent various spiritual and physical truths. Some, like Mr. Pike and me, think those descriptions in Apoc. 17-18 represent Jerusalem and Israel. Put those symbolic descriptions together with other Scriptural passages (as shown in my reply 29) and the connection of both ancient and modern day apostate Jerusalem/ Israel to “Babylon the Great” is unmistakable.

Here’s how St. John links "the great harlot", "a woman", "the woman" "Babylon the Great, mother of fornications", and "the great city” to Babylon.

Apoc. 11:8, the dead bodies of the two witnesses "lie in the streets of “the great city” (hey polis megaley Greek) which is called spiritually, Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord also was crucified”. This unmistakably implies that “Babylon” and “the great city are the same city… Jerusalem.

17:5 says on the woman’s (who is the great city) forehead a name is written, "Babylon the Great" and 7 times other Scriptural passages refer to "Babylon" as "the great city".

17:1-2, "....Come I will show you the judgment of the great harlot, ….."

Isaias 1:21 accused Jerusalem of harlotry. We know “the great city” refers to Jerusalem, so it follows “the judgment of the great harlot” refers to the judgment of Jerusalem.

17:18, “And the woman which thou saw is the great city, which hath kingdom over the kings of the earth.” “….the great city…” here is the same Greek hey polis megaley which use clearly refers to Jerusalem.

18:24; 16:6, “And in her (“the woman which thou saw is the great city) was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.”

KFC, So there you have it…the object of God’s judgment is the great city “that shed the blood of the prophets and saints." Goes exactly with Apoc. 17:6 “And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (as related in the Book of Acts).

“The great city” that shed the blood of the prophets and saints is also “the harlot”, “the woman”, and “Babylon the Great” which was St. John’s code for Jerusalem.

Connect that to Apoc. 18 and St. Matt. 23 for more proof….

18: 10, “Standing afar off for fear of her torments, saying alas! Alas! that great city Babylon, that mighty city; for in one hour is thy judgment come.”

18:19, “And they cast dust upon their heads and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Alas! alas! that great city wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea by reason of her prices, : for in one hour she is made desolate.”

Our Lord Jesus said the same when He spoke of Jerusalem.

In St. Matt. 23 Jesus announced the 7 woes upon the religious leaders of Jerusalem. You know those religious leaders, the Pharisees that assumed the Seat of Moses, as well as the ones who totally rejected the Supernatural Messias Christ, saying “We have no king but Caesar”!

Verses 37-39, Of Jerusalem, Christ said, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killed the prophets and stoned them that are sent to you! How often would I have gathered together thy children as the hen does gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldst not. 38 Behold your house shall be left to you, desolate. 39 For I say to you, you shall not see me from now until you shall say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.”

KFC, Israel shall be made “desolate”. Where did we hear that before? How does that tie Israel to the harlot and show the judgment that is upon her. Apoc. 17: [16] And the ten horns which thou saw in the beast: these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire.

St. Matt. 23:39 is most interesting.

“For I say to you, you shall not see me from now until you shall say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.”

This is the condition on any reversing of St.Matt. 23:38’s “desolate”. This clause indicates that if the desolation is to be altered, the Jews must accept Christ as the Blessed one of God. St. Paul’s answer to St.Matt. 23:39 is outlined in Romans 10:18-11:14, by references to the “remnant” or “some” of Israel who will turn to Christ which as the Book of Acts records is in process of fulfillment. Acts. 2:1-3:26; 15:16-18.

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 27

If you wish to believe Babylon and Israel are the same. Go for it. You can't prove it by scripture. …..

I just did.

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 25

..... Here in Revelation it says about BABYLON:

"and a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea saying. Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down and SHALL BE FOUND NO MORE AT ALL. And the voice of harpers and musicians and of pipers and trumpeters shall BE HEARD NO MORE in thee and NO craftsman of whatsoever craft he be, SHALL BE FOUND ANYMORE in thee and the sound of a millstone shall be heard NO MORE at all in the, and the light of a candle shall shine NO MORE at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard NO MORE at all in thee for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the BLOOD of the PROPHETS and of SAINTS and of all that were slain upon the earth. (Which fits both original Babylon and Rome) Rev 8:21-24

KFC, I know many Saints were martyred in ancient Rome, but who of the prophets were killed there?

Apoc.18: 24 better fits Jerusalem, that is, if you understand what Jesus said to the Pharisees. St.Matt. 23:29-39

Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; that build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the monuments of the just, [30] And say: If we had been in the days of our Fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

[31] Wherefore you are witnesses against yourselves, that you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. [33] You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? [34] Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: [35] That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

[36] Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. [37] Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? [38] Behold, your house shall be left to you, desolate. [39] For I say to you, you shall not see me henceforth till you say: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yes, Israel was confronted with ancient Babylon, but remember that here in St.John’s Revelation, “Babylon” is a whore. The biggest sin of “Babylon” is mentioned in verse 23. “all nations were deceived by thy sorcery.” Well, under the Davidic Covenant, Jerusalem (Sion), was to be a light to the nations, a beacon that would point them to the true God. But instead of telling the truth to the nations, as Christ did, Jerusalem deceived them, not living up to the covenantal responsibilities of David’s heirs, in fact, she killed those prophets who tried to.

In Apoc.18: 24 And in her was found the blood of the prophets and of saints and of all that were slain upon the earth.

St. John writes: “And in her” was found…” Here the Angel declares that in her, that is, in the Whore, “was found the blood of the prophets and of saints and of all that were slain upon the earth.”

Also note the connection of the last part of v. 24, “of all that were slain upon the earth” and that of St.Matt. 23:35…it’s almost the same…[35] That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

The Whore here is Jerusalem.

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 25

It's pretty clear this city in 17:1 and beyond is NOT Jerusalem but is Babylon. Now whether this Babylon will be centered in Rome or rebuilt Babylon on the Euphrates is debated. Babylon is demonic. This has NOTHING to do with Jerusalem, or Zion, God's holy city and like I said before is just bad theology. Jerusalem is where the Heart of God is. It's his special place on earth that He has chosen and in the end it says all the nations will go up to Mt. Zion and worship. It will be the place of worship in the coming age. Quite a contrast with Babylon (WHICH IS NOT ISRAEL) ……

So it's quite clear that Babylon of Revelation and God's Holy City of Jerusalem have two much different outcomes. They are NOT the same.

God judged ancient Babylon and God judged Jerusalem in 70AD. Since then Israel’s house is desolate. This part, in the symbolic manner of Apoc. 17-18, the Whore of Babylon part, that is, the apostate part of Israel that rejected and continues to reject Christ is no longer the apple of God’s eye.

Israel with its Torah-based priestly Jewish religion, at the moment the Temple was rent from top to bottom, is done. Israel’s house, the Mosaic Church of the Children of Israel set forth in the Torah (Pentateuch) followed by the destruction of the Temple with the single Altar is gone.

The prophets and the faithful remnant of Jews fulfilled the divine mission of Old Testament Judaism. The mission ended with the coming of the predicted Supernatural Messias, the Christ in the Person of Jesus, true God and true Man.

For God it used to be ALL ABOUT ISRAEL, but it’s not all about Israel any longer. It’s now all about Christ and the New Covenant in His Blood. 1Cor. 11:23-26.

The modern state of Israel is not the apple of God’s eye, but individual Jews who repent, convert to Christ and follow His commands ARE. St. Paul and The Book of Acts teach this very well.

Our Lord said, “You are either with Me or against Me.” Modern Israel is against Christ, this cannot be denied. Almighty God is no respecter of states or nations or cities.

Mr. Pike did a good job laying this all out. Here is part of it again.

Scripture also describes only one city as center of world rule in the last days, and that is Jerusalem. Paul states clearly that the anti-Christ will declare his one-world authority from the temple at Jerusalem, where he proclaims he is God. (2 Thess. 2:4) When the two witnesses resist him, they do not battle a papal anti-Christ but “the wicked profane prince of Israel” in Jerusalem. (Ezek. 21:25) These scriptures point to Jerusalem as the epicenter of one-world rebellion against God; Jerusalem and Babylon are one!

Modern Judaism is Babylonian

There is more depth to the metaphor. Judaism literally is Babylonian, more than nearly any other religion or culture. Most of its religious laws and traditions, including the Babylonian Talmud and Zohar (Kabbalah), come from nearly 1,600 years Jews spent on the fertile plains of Shinar. Few religions have a deeper tradition of occult. Revelation describes Babylon the Great deceiving the world through her “sorceries” and the Jewish encyclopedias tell us it was Judaism which carried Babylon’s black arts, demonology and astrology to the West.

This is as true today as ever. Jewish supremacism today is not only erecting a political, financial, commercial world empire but spewing filth on the nations through their movie and TV media. (link to Jews in media article) They spearhead freedom-destroying, pro-homosexual hate crimes laws worldwide and abet all forms of left-wing and anti-Christ radicalism through their “civil liberties” fronts such as ADL, ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center.

And just as “Babylon the Great” will deceive the world, so Jewish leaders today present a whitewashed façade to Christians and the world – an illusion of goodness that has never been more convincing or scrupulously maintained. The Jewish lobby deceived Christians into unquestioning support of Israel’s ambitions and atrocities in the Mideast; this is awesome evidence of the manipulative influence Jewry will enjoy as we draw even closer to the end. When Christ warned that the delusions of the end time would be so irresistible that “even the very elect” could be deceived, He was speaking of our day!

In our day we witness the continuing and monstrous complications of that great divorce of Christ from his chosen bride millennia ago. We are not simply approaching the foothills of anti-Christ. We are in them. Through intrigue and deception, the control and commercialism of “ Babylon the Great” has come surround us. Yet we have not perceived it. We have, in fact, assisted it.

Babylon is now.

How should Christians respond to the fact that Israel and Babylon are one? Jesus tells us the answer. "Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as heaven…" (Rev. 18:4-5)

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 32

The fact is the Catholic Church also calls Mary Queen of Heaven. That is Fact which you've corroborated.

Yes, it is fact; Catholics call Our Lord's Blessed Mother, Queen of Heaven. And rightly so, for Queen of Heaven is who she is and will be throughout eternity, that is there shall be no end to her reign.

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 32

This is an AFFRONT to God.

No it isn't.

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 32

There's NOTHING in scripture ANYWHERE where Mary is called Queen of Heaven.

True, not directly.....but oh yes, it's there indirectly.

Also, I must remind you there is nothing in Scripture ANYWHERE where God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost is called the Blessed Trinity either. Where did non-Catholics get that dogmatic, infallible Truth? It wasn't from just reading Scripture, you know “the Bible only” mindset!! It was from Catholicism. When the Protestant forefathers revolted from the Church, they took with them some of the Church's dogmatic Truths (but I digress!). Anyway, just as the Blessed Trinity is dogmatic Truth, the Blessed Mother Mary, Queen of Heaven is dogmatic Truth, a dogma of the one true Faith of Christ.

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 32

God is NOT married to a Queen. God is King sitting on HIS throne and WE are his bride. The believers.

Here, from the link I posted earlier, is a complete explanation why Catholics call Mary, Queen of Heaven and how it’s found in Scripture.

In Scripture we see many archetypes, that is, an image from which later forms develop; a foreshadowing of something in the future and we see as an early model. Catholics see the Blessed Mother Mary through 3 archetypes…the Ark of the Covenant, the New Eve, and Queen of Heaven.

Mary, Ark of the Covenant……The OT Ark of the Covenant had 3 things in it…the Ten Commandments, (written word of God), Manna, and Aaron’s staff. It was kept in the Holy of Holies in the Temple and became the central focus of ancient Jewish life. If those things in the Ark of the Covenant are central and centrally connected to God and contained in a very certain way to this vessel, then how much more is Mary who actually in her womb contained God Himself? As we had the Ark of the Covenant of the OT carry the word of God, so we have the Ark of the Covenant of the New NT, Mary herself carrying the actual God Himself, the Living Word, the Logos.

Mary as the NT Ark of the Covenant is an incredible beautiful reflection. God gave instructions how the OT Ark of the Covenant was to be fashioned, so pure and undefiled that no one was allowed to touch it. All the more pure and holy was Mary, who carried God in her very body. That’s why we call her “Immaculate Mary”.

Mary, the New Eve….Genesis tells us that God forbade Eve to eat of the certain tree and she essentially said “No” and disobeyed Him and as a result the whole human race fell from God’s original Grace, but He promised a Redeemer. Later, God sent Gabriel to the Virgin Mary and proposed that she should conceive and bring forth a Son and the Virgin Mary essentially said, “Yes”, her “fiat”..”be it done to me according to thy word.” When she said “Yes”, she reversed Eve’s “No” and brings the path of redemption to the whole human race…the Redeemer conceived in her womb.

So from this we understand that Mary is central to salvation. Because of her cooperation, the Blessed trinity invites her into salvific action and she says, “Yes”. Like the Grace offered to Our Blessed Mother Mary, every one of us is invited to cooperate with Grace of God. It’s up to us to say “Yes”, and Mary becomes our role model.

Mary, Queen of Heaven….Over a hundred times, the Gospels refer to “the Kingdom of Heaven”. When Our Lord was before Pilate, he asked Jesus, “art thou King of the Jews?” And Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world…but now my kingdom is not from here.” Pilate asked, “Are you a King then?” And Jesus answered, “Thou sayest I am a King. For this was I born……”. Then Pilate went out to the Jews and asked who he should release as was the custom. He said, “…will you therefore, that I release unto you the King of the Jews?”

"The King of the Jews"....And that relates to the archetype image of the Old Testament kingdom of the people of God. Israel is established as a kingdom. It has a king and moves through a line of kings, rulers, Temple, priesthood..all things that go into the kingdom of God’s chosen people.

Our Lord spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven and it becomes clear the Kingdom of Heaven becomes a model for the Kingdom here on earth. In the “Our Father” prayer, “thy kingdom come.” The earthly kingdom is an archetypal vision, a projection into the future, …this time the projection is in Heaven. What was in the earthly kingdom of the Old and New Covenant people of God is an archetype for the Kingdom of Heaven. There was the Temple on earth and Apocalypse speaks of the Temple in Heaven. The Lamb that was sacrificed on earth is the Lamb in Heaven. Christ was the King on earth, now is the King in Heaven.

In the earthly kingdoms, the king has a queen. Unlike the medieval or European role of king and queen being husband and wife, in the Old Testament, the Queen is not the King’s wife, but the King’s mother. That’s who the Queen is, check it out.

In I and 2 Kings, in the introduction to the reigns of the kings of Judah, the name of the king’s mother is almost always recorded. The importance attached to the mother’s name is explained by the fact that it is the king’s mother and not his wife who exercises the functions of queen. Her spheres of influence are not specified but one can glean of a high “matrocinium” she exercises in the affairs of state.

King David and Bathsheba’s son is Solomon. When Solomon is king, his mother Bathsheba is queen. Solomon has his mother sit beside him on the throne. Don’t know the exact passage, but some one comes and asks a favor of Solomon but asks the queen instead because Solomon will not deny a request from the queen.

The institution of the queen mother seems to have been peculiar to the kingdom of Judah. There is no trace of this institution in the chronicles of Israel.

Go back to when the Angel Gabriel was sent to the Blessed Virgin Mary. He told her she would conceive and bear a Son and His name Jesus. 1:32-33, “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God shall give Him the throne of David his father. And He shall reign in the house of Jacob forever. And of His kingdom there shall be no end.”

Right here we know, Our Lord Jesus Christ is King of His earthly Kingdom of His New Covenant people and of His Heavenly Kingdom which will last forever.

Once the Blessed Mother died, she went to Heaven and becomes Queen of the Kingdom of Heaven. Psalm 44 is about the excellence of Christ’s kingdom and the endowments of His Church. Verse 9, …the queen stood on thy right hand, in guilded clothing surrounded by variety.”

The Old Testament archetype of the Kingship of Christ and Queenship of Mary is now complete.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

you are so messed up here Lula...it would take me forever to straighten you up. To be honest, it's just too much work. I gave you easy to understand logic keeping it simple but you drown me with your many words and scriptures which are all skewed. For instance when you say John looked at Rome with admiration and he would NEVER do that. Do you know the word in the Greek? It's not the "admired" we use today.

Stuff like that. You're just trying to twist the scriptures to make them say what you wish them to say rather than read the plain scriptures.

This is all religious mumbo jumbo you're trying to feed me. It's not exegeting the scriptures correctly at all. But trying to make them fit your RCC agenda.

Good luck with that.

Like I ASKED earlier (and you ignored) WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD A "CHRISTIAN" CHURCH CALL THE MOTHER OF JESUS THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN WHEN THE ONLY QUEEN OF HEAVEN IN SCRIPTURE WAS PAGAN IDOLATRY?

Also, ignored.. WHY ALSO IS IT VERY CLEAR THAT BABYLON WOULD BE DESTROYED FOREVER BUT NOT ZION (JERUSALEM) WHICH WILL LIVE ON FOR ALL ETERNITY. HOW CAN THEY BE THE SAME IF THERE IS TWO DIFFERENT OUTCOMES?

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 42

Like I ASKED earlier (and you ignored) WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD A "CHRISTIAN" CHURCH CALL THE MOTHER OF JESUS THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN WHEN THE ONLY QUEEN OF HEAVEN IN SCRIPTURE WAS PAGAN IDOLATRY?

Have Patience. Your post 32 was loaded and it is going to take some time to respond.

As far as the first part of your question, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD A "CHRISTIAN" CHURCH CALL THE MOTHER OF JESUS THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN, my #41 reply answers that in full.

Btw, so now the Catholic Church is Christian in parenthesis!!! Ha, ha, ha, I'm laughing myself off my chair! (And you say I'm the one messed up and needs straightening!!!).

OK...back on my chair and moving on.....

The second part of your question, WHEN THE ONLY QUEEN OF HEAVEN IN SCRIPTURE WAS PAGAN IDOLATRY?, has nothing whatsoever to do with the first part of your question. Let me repeat that, Nothing whatsoever to do with Mary, Queen of Heaven.

There is no connection, no parallel and that's what I said in reply #30 when I objected to your nonsensical, unreasonable attempt to make one. All it is is an attempt to discredit Catholicism.

But this has been going on for years. Adversaries have given pagan mythologies that have gods with sons on earth or virgin-born saviors. But so what? They are devoid of reality, while the fact of the Incarnation of Our Lord emerges unscathed. Bottom line: there is no connection between them. As a parallel, it is altogether deficient.

In your article you write:

According to ancient writings the wife of Nimrod was Semiramis. She later became known as the "queen of heaven." The story is told that after her husband died, he became a sun god and she later became impregnated by a sunbeam carrying her late husband's sperm. This, of course, would be considered a counterfeit miraculous birth. Her son's name was Tammuz. When he was a young man he was killed by a wild boar while out hunting.

She mourned his death for many days and miraculously he was resurrected (now a counterfeit resurrection). When he was resurrected he was resurrected as Nimrod in the flesh. Sound familiar?

So you took a few passages of Scripture and combined that with pagan mythologies found on the Net!

Pagan mythologies are characterized chiefly by the complete absence of an historical element.

Same thing here with your mythical non-historical Semiramis so called queen of heaven. The pagan legends make her a goddess associated with all that is licentious and immoral. The Blessed Mother Mary was a real historical person. The historical Mary, Queen of Heaven, has never been regarded as a goddess, and was the purest woman who ever set foot on this earth.

No comparison, no connection, no parallel..just a stab at militating against Catholicism.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 43

So you took a few passages of Scripture and combined that with pagan mythologies found on the Net!

no this has nothing to do with the NET. This has been long established way before the computer age.

Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 43

The historical Mary, Queen of Heaven, has never been regarded as a goddess, and was the purest woman who ever set foot on this earth.

this is pagan mythology itself. You're taking someone and making her what she was never to begin with. She was never the purest woman who ever set foot on this earth. Show me where this is historical fact. The only one who makes this claim is the RCC itself. She was human, therefore she WAS not pure. The ONLY one that was pure was JESUS.

Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 41

So in other words...you can't show me. It's just coming from Catholicism. How convenient. Makes it true then?

You say it's there indirectly and tried to compare it to the trinity. There's no comparison. The trinity is spelled out even if the word "trinity" isn't there. It's clear from the first chapter of the bible to the end of the book that there's a Father, Son & Holy Spirit threesome. The Holy Spirit is even called God. Jesus is called God and of course the Father is God. There's no such clarity when it comes to Mary being the queen of heaven. In fact there's a scripture that comes right out and says "Jerusalem is the mother of us all." Not Mary. Even in Genesis it comes right out and says Eve was the mother of all living. Doesn't say anything like that about Mary. Jesus himself brought Mary down to perspective when a woman from the crowd dared to start the first inkling of Mary worship (Luke) by shouting out that His mother needs to be recognized for her giving him birth.

So if anything it's really clear from the mouth of Jesus himself who silenced any thought of Mary Worship that this is NOT to be done.

But, you have your "Catholicism" which by your own words is overriding the words of Jesus himself. How sad. This is why Jesus is standing outside of the church knocking on the door. If they would only let him in...

The fact is the Queen of Heaven was Pagan. Pure and Simple. The RCC came along in the 3rd century, part of a pagan system and transferred the Pagan Queen of Heaven (Semiramis) and her son (Tammuz) to Mary and Jesus.

Some people say the RCC is both pagan and Christian, a mixture. Some come right out and say the whole system is Pagan.

That's why scripture implores us to "Come OUT OF HER my people."

That's why my mother left. She came face to face with the fact that she was in a pagan system all along. She loved her church as you do. It wasn't easy. But she loved the truth more.

That's why Jesus said "he who doesn't leave father and mother (traditions) for my sake is not worthy of me."

I'm not telling you this because of any other reason than I want you to see the truth. You're in a system that runs contrary to the God of scripture.

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 42

The physical aspect of Babylon/Babylonia and Jerusalem/Israel is the same with the same outcomes.

Babylon, the great city of the Bible, is gone, came to a definitive end at the hands of the Persian army. Jerusalem, the great city of the Bible is gone, came to a definitive end in 70AD at the hands of Titus and Roman Army. Both had the same judgment handed to them by Almighty God. Babylon in the Bible was the archetype of Jerusalem, in the Bible.

Daniel 10:26 prophesies what will happen to Jerusalem in 70AD, "And after 62 weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny Him shall not be His. And a people (the ancient Romans) with their leader (Titus), that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be waste and after the end of the war the appointed desolation."

Daniel says Israel shall be made “desolate”. Where did we hear that before? How does that tie Israel to the harlot and show the judgment that is upon her. Apoc. 17:16, And the ten horns which thou saw in the beast (ancient Rome): these shall hate the harlot, (Israel/Jerusalem) and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire.

The ancient region of Babylonia is gone, and so will modern day region of Israel be gone one day. Don't know when, but it will be gone just like the rest of the nations on this planet if not sooner, then at the end of the world when CHrist comes again to judge the living and the dead, as per the Apostles' Creed.

Almighty God is no respecter of physical land or nations, including Israel. It's the spiritual part of all of us, our soul, that He cares about .

St. Matt. 23:39 tells us the one and only condition on any reversing Israel's desolation referred to in Apoc. 17:16,

“For I say to you, you shall not see me from now until you shall say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.”

This clause indicates that if the desolation is to be altered, the Jews must accept Christ as the Blessed one of God. St. Paul’s answer to St.Matt. 23:39 is outlined in Romans 10:18-11:14, by references to the “remnant” or “some” of Israel who will turn to Christ which as the Book of Acts records is in process of fulfillment. Acts. 2:1-3:26; 15:16-18.

"Babylon", the "Whore of Babylon", etc. in the Apocalypse are as a symbol of a power adverse to God and His chosen People, first to the Old Covenant people and, after Christ, to His New Covenant people which includes all those who accept Christ as the BLessed One of God.

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 42

Also, ignored.. WHY ALSO IS IT VERY CLEAR THAT BABYLON WOULD BE DESTROYED FOREVER BUT NOT ZION (JERUSALEM) WHICH WILL LIVE ON FOR ALL ETERNITY.

The Sion (Jerusalem) which will live on for all eternity that you speak of is that Holy City, "New Jerusalem" from above, the Church glorified, that is seen by St. John as it comes down from Heaven when there is a "new heaven and a new earth", prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. Apoc. 21:1-7.

Apoc. 21:7 tells us who will be in New Jerusalem, "He that shall overcome shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

And verse 8 tells us who will not be there, "But as for the fearful and unbelieving, the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, there lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death".

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Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 43

So you took a few passages of Scripture and combined that with pagan mythologies found on the Net!

Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 44

no this has nothing to do with the NET. This has been long established way before the computer age.

Oh really. What's this then if not a few passages of Scripture about Nimrod mixed with pagan mythology?

Nimrod was a mighty hunter, of men's souls the saying goes, living after the days of Noah and the great flood. You can find the biblical story in Genesis 11 but there is also much more written outside the pages of the bible and quite easily attainable. Nimrod was a leader, one who established his own kingdom, its chief city being Babel or Babylon. His goal was to unify the people to follow his lead in a revolt against God as they attempted to build a tower of worship to the sun.

Of course, God stepped in, confused their language and the people scattered settling around the globe as He intended in the first place.

According to ancient writings the wife of Nimrod was Semiramis. She later became known as the "queen of heaven." The story is told that after her husband died, he became a sun god and she later became impregnated by a sunbeam carrying her late husband's sperm. This, of course, would be considered a counterfeit miraculous birth. Her son's name was Tammuz. When he was a young man he was killed by a wild boar while out hunting.

She mourned his death for many days and miraculously he was resurrected (now a counterfeit resurrection). When he was resurrected he was resurrected as Nimrod in the flesh. Sound familiar? This became the beginning of a counterfeit religious pagan system and can be verified easily enough. Just google any of the names involved and you will see the writings behind it. [/quote]

Cupid is none other than Nimrod resurrected and is always seen with a bow and arrow. Remember Nimrod was a mighty hunter of what? Men's souls.

This sure looks like pagan mythology mixed with a passage from Scripture about Nimrod to me.

[quote who="KFC Kickin For Christ" reply="44" id="3003613"]The fact is the Queen of Heaven was Pagan. Pure and Simple. The RCC came along in the 3rd century, part of a pagan system and transferred the Pagan Queen of Heaven (Semiramis) and her son (Tammuz) to Mary and Jesus.

The CC and holy religion was established by Christ in 33AD and has been going and growing ever since. In 1517, Protestants revolted from the Church Christ established and set up their new heretical forms of religion with their own churches which have been spreading this kind of sheer nonsense ever since.

Here you go again....vainlessly trying to connect a mythological queen of heaven to Mary, Queen of Heaven as if similiaritiy are of themselves sufficient proof of derivation.

Want the full truth? Read my reply 41 which explains why Catholics rightfully call Mary, Queen of Heaven. It's all based on Old Testament history and Scripture. Why don't you rebut that instead of indulging in fancies against the CC?

This story is not just a cute little story that has no merit behind it. We see the history of all this inside and outside the bible. When the Jews were in Babylonian captivity Jeremiah admonished the Jews for worshipping the "queen of heaven." He said this to them

"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven and to pour out drink offerings to other gods that they may provoke me to anger."

The prophet Ezekiel during this same time period recorded his vision writing this:

"Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north and behold there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Then said he to me, Have you seen this, O son of man? turn you yet again and you shall see greater abominations than these." Ezek 8:14-15

Exactly. The fact is, it was the Jewish Church that was polluted by the abominations of idolatry and look what happened to them?

Only 7,000 of them remained faithful and didn't bow down to Baal.

Jeremias and Ezekiel weren't describing Christ's New Covenant Church and holy religion. It never, ever had an appeal for the pagan world which greeted the new religion with centuries of violent hatred and persecution until Constantine issued the Edict of Milan.

This is essentially what the Apocalypse is all about. The OT region of Babylon was given the title "whore". A spiritual whore is one who at the time has a reltionshipw with God but has fallen into heresy or from the faith altogether. St. John is warning that God's people in the OT were confronted with "Babylon", symbolic for paganism and idolatry. Most fell and the Jewish religion has been forsaken and it has become part of the Whore of Babylon. Now the warning goes to God's NT people, the Church. It is "the whore" who is trying to seduce Christians away from Jesus Christ, His Church and Holy religion, Catholicism.

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 32

Mary...... The RCC says she gave birth to God ….She DID NOT give birth to God. She gave birth to his humanity. Not his deity.

KFC, If you really believe this then you are just repeating the Nestorian heresy which claimed the same thing and denied that Mary is the Mother of God.

Take a lesson in the fullness of Christian doctrine on the Incarnation of God’s Son “come in the flesh”…not from me, but from the Church Council Father’s teaching what that means.

Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, a Divine Person born of the Virgin Mary is dogma of Christian Faith that has been handed down by Apostolic Tradition. From Apostolic times, the one, true Christian Faith has insisted on the true incarnation of God’s Son “come in the flesh”. During the first few centuries the Church Councils (at Antioch, Nicea I in 325, and the Third Ecumenical Council in Ephesus in 431) had to defend and clarify this Scriptural truth against heresies (Gnostic Docetism, Arianism, and Nestorianism) that falsified it.

The above named CC Councils infallibly defined the dogma of Mary’s divine maternity which the CC teaches and all Catholics must believe. St.Hippolytus of Rome (170-235) was the first to use the title, Theotokos (“God-bearer” or “Mother of God”). Christ was truly in Mary’s womb and was really born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. At Ephesus, St. Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria wrote to Nestorius , “that the Word, uniting to Himself in His Person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man.” Also, “For it was not that He was first born of the Holy Virgin as an ordinary man and then the Word descended on this man; on the contrary, united from the womb itself, He is said to have undergone birth according to the flesh, thus appropriating for Himself the birth of His own flesh…..”

And so the Council Fathers didn’t hesitate to call the holy Virgin Mary, Mother of God (Theotokos) which represents a Christological dogma centered on the mystery of the Incarnation. The dogma asserts that Mary enjoys a unique relationship with Christ, that she is truly Mother of the Eternal Word, Who took His human flesh from her.

When Catholics pray “The Hail Mary” prayer, we explicitly invoke, “Holy Mary, Mother of God”.

Catholics typically call Mary, our “Blessed Mother”, which points to our participation in the divine life as adopted children of God. We could not call her our “Blessed Mother” unless she was first and foremost His Blessed Mother.

The Bible identifies Mary as the Mother of Jesus and mother of the Son of God. Even before the birth of Jesus, Elizabeth proclaims that Mary is “the mother of my Lord.” Scripture also teaches that Christ is Emmanuel---God truly with us. St. Matt. 1:23. Christ is “the image of the invisible God..” Col. 1:15. There are also a number of other passages in which Jesus is called God.

The Blessed Virgin Mary did not give Jesus His divine nature or His divine Personhood, which was His from all eternity. Nor did she give Him His human soul, which He received when He became man in her virginal womb. Mary is the mother of a Person.

Here’s the mystery. In Jesus Christ there are two natures—human and divine--- and these natures are united without confusion in one divine Person---the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, in what is called the hypostatic union. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is a Divine Person, that is, God, then Mary is rightly called the “Mother of God”.

To many, this is confusing and thus heretical teachings abound. But Christ established His one, true Church to protect and safeguard authentic teachings concerning the Person of Christ and the Marian doctrine that flows from that. By proclaiming that Mary is Theotokos, the Church Council affirmed that Mary is truly a mother, thus affirming Jesus’ humanity. By affirming that she is Mother of God, the Church not only affirmed Jesus’ divinity, but also the union of Jesus’ human and divine natures in His one Divine Person.

After Jesus died, history records that St.John took our Blessed Mother to Ephesus, and the ancient ruins of which lie in the central western coast of Turkey. Several hundred thousand tourists visit Ephesus each year and bring away with them the wonderful experience of having visited her home.

The Council at Ephesus was conducted in a large cathedral known as the Twin Churches of Mary and the ruins have been found and are under restoration.

http://www.andiesisle.com/didsheknow.html

Listen to this beautiful song about my Blessed Mother Mary…she gave birth to God, the Emmanuel with us, and the Word made flesh…. “and when you kiss your little baby, you’ve kissed the face of God” is one of the lines...

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Quoting KFC Kickin For Christ,

reply 32

This massive influence of Mary in the RCC system is deadly, very deadly. It's so widespread. It's idolatry and violation of the first commandment.

The Church honors Mary with filial affection and devotion as a most beloved Mother. This devotion is NOT the adoration that is proper to God ALONE, but rather the love for a Mother who always reminds us to follow her Son, so that He may be known, loved and glorified and that all people may be gathered into one family in Christ, to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity.

The last words of Our Blessed Mother found in Scripture are, "Do whatever He tells you".

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 48

The last words of Our Blessed Mother found in Scripture are, "Do whatever He tells you".

so? What's your point? Do you want me to write the last words of Christ?

Wouldn't that be more important?

How about Peter? John?

The fact that you even wrote this shows that the worship of Mary in the RCC system is very real and true.

There's nothing wrong with Mary or her words. It's the idolatry surrounding her by those out of her control that is disturbing.

She would want all attention be given to her son WHO IS THE ONE WHO GAVE HIS LIFE FOR OURS, NOT to herself.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Quoting lulapilgrim,

reply 47

she gave birth to God, t

and this statement again, shows the adoration and idolatry surrounding Mary.

She DID NOT give birth to God. She gave birth to HER SON Jesus who was 100% man. She gave birth to his humanity NOT to his deity. HE ALWAYS WAS. She DID NOT GIVE BIRTH TO GOD!

By saying so it elevates Mary which is the whole point isn't it?

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