What's Enough? » Forum Post by MarcieMoo

Most people UNDER-think the responsibility of having children. Some, like you, OVER-think it.

It's the most natural biological drive we have. To procreate. To raise little mini mes to carry on our likeness.

What a kid needs, IMO, is a pretty short list. If you can love and support a child (and I don't mean support like buy him crap, I mean like you are capable of caring about his well-being and willing to work to help him grow and be happy), then you have the bulk of what is needed.

Not everyone is cut out for having kids, but I honestly don't think that's the case for you Marcie. I think you will/would be a very attentive, involved, loving mother. Teaching prior to having kids scares women, I think, because you get to see a lot of sad, messed up situations. You see some of the results of parenting choices that make you wonder what goes on at home.

The thing is, it's not really taking a chance. Having a baby is not like being handed a lump of clay where you are responsible for molding and shaping and creating it. It's more like (thank you, Dr. Sears), tending a garden. Your child, from birth, is who he is. You carefully nourish him and you pull the weeds when you can and help him grow into his own best. IMO, you have to work pretty hard to permanently screw a kid up. Human beings are super resiliant and we can manage to have happy, productive lives in spite of less than ideal upbringings.

You have the advantage of age/maturity and lots of experience with kids. When/if you decide to start a family, you will be starting from a place of experience and knowledge. It will still knock you on your ass, but you will love it and you will adapt to it.

Being a mother is a great pleasure.

Successfully updated karma reason!

My theory is that kids are like dogs. Does that sound horrible? But they are what you make them. You can teach the dog how you want them to act from the moment you get them, or you can not do a whole lot with them, and the dog won't listen at all when its really important.

There's just so many variables. Maybe I should adopt a ten year old and then I can blame any screwed-upedness on foster parents, etc. lol

I just don't know...we have lots of talking to do before we get to the point where we're ready to even go off the birth control. We shall see.

Successfully updated karma reason!

But they are what you make them.

Oh, disagree completely!

Kids are born with a personality. With preferences, tendencies, etc. Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Parents/environment does play a big role in outcome, but you can't take a baby and mold them into what you want them to be. They are who they are, and as a parent, IMO, the job is to help them make the most of who they are, NOT attempt to mold them into somebody different (who might be less annoying to be around, LOL).

That is not to say that parents are not responsible at all for outcomes, because we have great influence on our children, but there's a lot of "nature" that is there to begin with. KWIM?

Nothing wrong with waiting until you feel prepared to start your family, Marcie. I don't get the impression that you'd be the kind of mom who would cause irreparable harm due to her own screwedupedness, though, LOL. I think you would work very hard at being the best mom you could be, and that's really all we CAN do.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I don't disagree with you that kids are "clay," because they are who they are. But I think that kids are SO teachable. Lots of my students don't have social skills. They don't know how to accept a complement, how to apologize, how to accept a "no," etc. You can teach kids those things, and when kids have those skills, I think it changes them a little bit, you know?

People think that pitbulls are this horiffic breed of dogs, etc., but they're not. They have the potential to be dangerous, but you can start out with the same dog and go two different directions with it. Does that make sense?

I don't think moms go into the motherhood role planning on screwing things up. I just worry that my child will need something that I can't give to him or her, emotionally or mentally. I deal with my own mental issues, and I don't want my own troubles to become my child's worry. I know there comes a point where you've done what you can do, and the only thing left for you to do is wait for your kid to come to you for advice.

Maybe I'm a little scared of loving someone so much like that. Because if I ever lost a child, I think I would go stark raving mad and would have to be institutionalized. Its way easier to be a little detached from other people's kids but still give them a little bit of me....

Successfully updated karma reason!

I agree with Brandie, I think teachers often get a "preview" of what parents do or don't do, and it may scare them.

I also think that too many parents think that what they do influences their kids so much more than it does. I mean, yes, abusing kids can screw them up, and so can spoiling them... but that is like most extremes. Most parents aren't extreme one way or the other. We spoil them sometimes, do what others might consider "abuse" other times, but for the most part, we love them, guide them and try to be examples to them.. then they grow their own minds and personalities and become something completely different than we trained them to be.

I remember doing all sorts of things that I thought would be great memories, or make huge impacts on my kids... but now that they are grown, I bring up fun stuff we did and they don't remember. On the other hand, they bring up something that meant the world to them, and I wonder how they considered that important at all.

I also think that you sell your impact as a teacher short. I mean, true, I barely remember most my teachers' names, much less the subjects they taught... and to try to remember any of their lessons or examples would be impossible. However, there are those few teachers who I remember well, mostly because of something they taught me that went beyond mere subject matter. But like the gap between what parents think will be memorable and what kids take into adulthood, I doubt teachers ever understand what we take into adulthood from our short time with them.

I think that when you are ready, you'll know... of course that time might be when you learn you are already "late", and you realize you are excited.

Successfully updated karma reason!

My theory is that kids are like dogs. Does that sound horrible? But they are what you make them.

Ouch, that is, I hate to say, a weird analogy. Kids are nothing like dogs. For one thing you can train a dog to hear a noise that to them could mean dinner time; with kids, try yanking them off their favorite cartoon show or video game with any kind of sound. I don't even think the fire alarm will get them to run when doing any of these things. LOL.

Successfully updated karma reason!

ParaTed makes a good point about as a teacher you get to see what it's like to be a parent before you jump in yourself. And, as a father of 2 boys, let me say it's no piece of cake. But that is the beauty of it. To be able to raise a child and know that if he does good in life that you know you did a good job is the best feeling one could ever have, but it takes a lot of work, a lot of sacrifice and a lot of patience to raise a child. But then being an adult is not walk in the park either.

I say if you ever do plan on having children, waiting till you feel more comfortable about having them could be a good idea, but constantly doubting yourself is not. No one knows you better than you and if you don't trust yourself then I say steer clear of having children. But I can't help but saying that it makes me uncomfortable to know that a person who does not trust themselves with their own kids actually works with other peoples kids. I am entrusting my children to all the teachers i their school and to know (not believe, but know) that one of them is having this kind of doubt would make me a very nervous father. But that is just me of course.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Charles:

It's not that I don't trust myself like...I don't know if I could keep from beating my kids or whatever. That's not the issue. The issue is that I work with so many children who just...have it horrible. I wouldn't want that for kids, whether or not I provided the horribleness. You see so many kids whose parents just don't have time, and don't care. I think it would be hard to be a teacher and be a parent. I don't know how these other teachers do it.

I think, Charles, you severely neglect the fact that teacher's are human too. Teachers get divorced, get married, have mental breakdowns, are drug users and alcoholics, and get speeding tickets. We even go grocery shopping sometimes, go to college, have grandkids, get cancer, etc. Amazing, isn't it, that a teacher would have doubts about having children because of what OTHER people do to their children?

JUers are an abnormal representation of the real world. And most people you know probably aren't an actual representation of the real world. A public classroom is a microchasm of the real world, with kids and families from ALL places in life.

I agree with Brandie, I think teachers often get a "preview" of what parents do or don't do, and it may scare them.

I also think that too many parents think that what they do influences their kids so much more than it does. I mean, yes, abusing kids can screw them up, and so can spoiling them... but that is like most extremes. Most parents aren't extreme one way or the other. We spoil them sometimes, do what others might consider "abuse" other times, but for the most part, we love them, guide them and try to be examples to them.. then they grow their own minds and personalities and become something completely different than we trained them to be.

I remember doing all sorts of things that I thought would be great memories, or make huge impacts on my kids... but now that they are grown, I bring up fun stuff we did and they don't remember. On the other hand, they bring up something that meant the world to them, and I wonder how they considered that important at all.

I also think that you sell your impact as a teacher short. I mean, true, I barely remember most my teachers' names, much less the subjects they taught... and to try to remember any of their lessons or examples would be impossible. However, there are those few teachers who I remember well, mostly because of something they taught me that went beyond mere subject matter. But like the gap between what parents think will be memorable and what kids take into adulthood, I doubt teachers ever understand what we take into adulthood from our short time with them.

I think that when you are ready, you'll know... of course that time might be when you learn you are already "late", and you realize you are excited.

That's just it, Ted. There's so much more to school than learning to multiply. I am a big relationship person when it comes to teaching. The teachers I remember the most are the ones who took the time to share a little bit of themselves with me. I think that's so important. You have to give in order to get. I guess that's what I'm trying to say: I feel like I give nearly all I have to give at school, and I feel like my students deserve that. How could I teach, and come home and give my own kids 110% of me, too?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Oopies. I forgot the other quote HTML thingy. Sorry Ted!

Successfully updated karma reason!

Heh, I agree with Charles. Kids are not like dogs. Sorry! Dogs may be intelligent and behave in child-like ways but children are really not like dogs and wisdom that applies to raising obedient, enjoyable pets does not typically apply to raising happy, well-adjusted children.

Learning please and thank you doesn't change who you are in some fundamental way.

I guess I can see how the prospect of having a child would be terrifying if you view a child as an animal that is dependent almost entirely on you for life direction. I don't know what to tell you to help you see it differently.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Wow. Okay. I guess I'm off to go get my tubes tied.

Successfully updated karma reason!

LOL, *I* don't know how to explain it to you, but it's something you will totally understand when you have kids, Marcie. I am totally not meaning that in an insulting way. I think it's something that might be difficult to understand "from the outside"...

Just wait, you'll see!

Successfully updated karma reason!

I think, Charles, you severely neglect the fact that teacher's are human too. Teachers get divorced, get married, have mental breakdowns, are drug users and alcoholics, and get speeding tickets. We even go grocery shopping sometimes, go to college, have grandkids, get cancer, etc. Amazing, isn't it, that a teacher would have doubts about having children because of what OTHER people do to their children?

Really? Had me fooled there for a moment. But then you by the same token I could say that you neglect the fect that Parents are teachers too. Example, my 10 year old and 5 year old knew their letters and colors before they even went to preschool. That's something me and my wife can claim was not the schools doing. Also we potty trained both of them and are the ones who pick up where the school leaves off after 2:00 PM. So if you think about it, being a teacher is probably the easiest job a person could have that comes close to being a parent. As a matter of fact, if I understand correctly the concept of homeschooling, I don't even need to go to college to get an educational degree yet I could homeschool my kids and they can get their diplomas all the same.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Marcie:

That's just it, Ted. There's so much more to school than learning to multiply. I am a big relationship person when it comes to teaching. The teachers I remember the most are the ones who took the time to share a little bit of themselves with me. I think that's so important. You have to give in order to get. I guess that's what I'm trying to say: I feel like I give nearly all I have to give at school, and I feel like my students deserve that. How could I teach, and come home and give my own kids 110% of me, too?

That's not as difficult as it sounds, and my guess is, you do it already without even realizing it. If you are the kind that gives 110% at work, I bet you do with everything you care about. The 110%'s aren't accumulative things, they are all 'here and now' things.

If you are doing something for your husband or close friends, do you hold back because you don't have anymore "110%'s" left? Somehow I doubt. Everytime we do something we love, or something for (or with) someone we love, we give it our all.

No offense, but I'm also betting that you don't always give that 110% at work. You lighten up when you feel it's appropriate and pour all you have into it when its needed.

Same with parenting. Sometimes you are fully committed and attentive, while other times (in spite of yourself) you say, "not now honey, I'm doing this". It doesn't mean you don't care, and the "experts" might disagree with me, but unless it happens a lot, the kids don't seem that bothered by it in the long run either.

The thing about raising kids is you have to keep in mind that they are probably going to be adults much longer than they were kids. The best any parent can do is help them form the basis of becoming great adults... without ever knowing how they will define "great" once they get there.

Successfully updated karma reason!

"Really? Had me fooled there for a moment. But then you by the same token I could say that you neglect the fect that Parents are teachers too. Example, my 10 year old and 5 year old knew their letters and colors before they even went to preschool. That's something me and my wife can claim was not the schools doing. Also we potty trained both of them and are the ones who pick up where the school leaves off after 2:00 PM. So if you think about it, being a teacher is probably the easiest job a person could have that comes close to being a parent. As a matter of fact, if I understand correctly the concept of homeschooling, I don't even need to go to college to get an educational degree yet I could homeschool my kids and they can get their diplomas all the same"

Geez do you want an award? Those are the things parents are suppose to do. Having their kids ready for kindergarten by already knowing letters and being potty trained is a parents' job not a teachers. And you are right parents are their child's first and most important teacher but you'd be surprised how many people neglect that fact. In fact, that is why teaching is so hard.....many parents don't do their jobs in the beginning.

Successfully updated karma reason!

We have a different breed of parents here on JoeUser, though. They are not a representative sample of the general American parentage. It depends on where you live, too. I teach in a town where the median household income is $60,000. That is not reperesentative of "average." FORTUNATELY, I teach in the "bad" part of town. We serve several low-income trailer parks. This is the part of town where parents are more likely to do the drug thing, not give a rat's ass about their kids, work crazy hours, leave their kids alone, and not be very interested in their academic success any more than I like their kid and take care of their kid for them when they're at school. I have to BRIBE students to bring back homework, because they don't do it.

The parents here at JU tend to be involved, and tend to think that building character and such belongs in the home. And it does. I think sometimes people here on JU forget that lots of other parents and families aren't like them. In an ideal world, people would care what their kids are doing in school, and would get a start on academic things before they even came to Kindergarten, and would teach their kids the difference between right and wrong. I wish things were ideal, but they're not.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Don't let anyone tell you that you need to, should or should not have kids. The fact that you are honestly looking into yourself and dealing with honest, real feelings is amazing. I always wanted a passel of kids too but ended up with just one. I do have moments when I wish I'd had more but mostly I am grateful to have made it through childrearing without (hopefully) doing too much damage. She's 19 and living on her own and loving it.

I think at any age, these are natural questions to ask yourself. Funny because I am now on the other end of this phase, facing a hysterectomy and I'm still asking myself the "is that all" question. You'll make the best decision for you. You just need to keep being honest with yourself and you'll be just fine.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Hi Marcie! Long time no "see."

Anywhoo, I feel EXACTLY the same way! I really waffle on this subject quite frequently. Like yourself, I love kids and love teaching, but I'm just afraid that I will not be the best parent. Even though I basically play a mother type figure 5 days a week from 8-3, I just don't know if it's something I can handle 24-7. It just seems like a huge responsibility that I am not sure I can handle.

Successfully updated karma reason!