A View From the Cross » Forum Post by lulapilgrim

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

That's it KFC...no time, no place, no Scripture which teaches a future 1,000 year reign of Christ on this present earth. There is no Scripture which views the Church age as nothing more than a "parenthesis" in the work of Almighty God.

The literal interpretation of Apoc. 20, a future millennial kingdom of earth where Christ after He appears for His Second coming will reign in Jerusalem for 1,000 years was officially rejected by the Chruch under the reign of Pope Pius XII as a system of interpretation that "cannot be taught safely."

of course. Let's just not abide by what Revelation 20 says. It's right there. How convenient. The OT Prophets speak of this time period and here in Revelation God mentions it 6 times thru the pen of John!!! For emphasis like he always does when HE wants us to "get it."

How can I argue with you? YOUR church has rejected it. End of story. All I can say to you is..."did God really say?" said the serpent to Eve.

This is exactly where you and I differ. When you listen to men over God's revealed word. Psalm 118:8.

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I've read almost all the post up to half way through page 20. Lula, you break the golden rule of interpretation nearly 90% of the time 'When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.' This golden rule applies not just to Scripture intrepretation but the translation of any language.

Regarding Peter as pope. It never mentions Peter as pope and the first Fifteen bishops of the Jerusalem Congregation were all Jewish (a note to something that was previously posted). James was the first leader of the Jerusalem Congregation and apparently Peter never contested this or he didn't realize he was a pope. In fact, until the defeat of Israel by the Romans in 135CE Jerusalem was the headquarters of the Messianic faith. Peter was involved but he was not in any way the big cheese or 'pope' position.

Speaking of Jerusalem: 'If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget what its suppose to do; let my tongue cleave to my palate, if I do not remember you, if I do not bring up Jerusalem above the head of my joy.' That's Psalms 137:5-6. That does not say rome that does not say vatican city that says Jerusalem. G-D will never FORGET JERUSALEM!

Lula, you said something about Jews can't keep the mosasic law or judiasm and be 'christians' or something to that nature. Just disregard Acts 21:20 then and what I'm about to say ' And hearing, they glorified the Lord, and said to him, You see, brother, how many myriads there are of Jews that have believed, and ALL ARE ZEALOUS ONES OF THE LAW'. Also, don't continue to read any further past verse 20 because you'll see Paul make a sacrifice! WHAT! Paul makes a sacrifice after Jesus died! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!!!!!!!! Take a Nazarite vow, what! That's the 'old' down away with Testament, what are these guys doing?

The early Believers were hardcore Jews. Probably knew Scripture better than most religious Jews back then and I bet they knew Scripture better then most Believers now as well.

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The OT Prophets speak of this time period and here in Revelation God mentions it 6 times thru the pen of John!!! For emphasis like he always does when HE wants us to "get it."

After looking carefully at these verses of Apoc. 20:1-6, I agree with Pope Pius XII. That there will be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ physically present on earth in Jerusalem is NOT TAUGHT OR EVEN IMPLIED IN THIS VISION or any other vision for that matter.

It's almost blasphemous to picture Christ on an earthly throne doing some kind of day-to-day-work for 1,000 years! Christ's Millennial kingdom is the Chruch of which St.Paul teaches there is "no Jew or Gentile...." Christ's Millennial kingdom is universal made up of all nations. Christ's Millennial kingdom is ecclesiastical. Christ reigns and rules His kingdom from heaven..after His Second Coming in Judgment (not for an earthly rule), the Millennial kingdom becomes New Jeruslem, an eternal, heavenly spiritual reality. It makes no sense to plant Christ on a physical throne in earthly Jerusalem. No, no, no. no. Can't be.

lula posts:

That's it KFC...no time, no place, no Scripture which teaches a future 1,000 year reign of Christ on this present earth. There is no Scripture which views the Church age as nothing more than a "parenthesis" in the work of Almighty God.

The literal interpretation of Apoc. 20, a future millennial kingdom of earth where Christ after He appears for His Second coming will reign in Jerusalem for 1,000 years was officially rejected by the Chruch under the reign of Pope Pius XII as a system of interpretation that "cannot be taught safely."

This is exactly where you and I differ. When you listen to men over God's revealed word.

The question is not what is written in God's revealed Word...we can all read. The question is what does Apoc. 20:1-6 really mean?

Yes, you are right ....you and I differ.....

You are reading Apoc. 20:1-6 and listening to men as to what it means....Marv and Rapturists, Dispensationalists, Pre-Millennialists, Christian Zionists and so on.

I'm reading Apoc. 20:1-6 and listening to the Church as to what it means. In this case Pope Pius XII, who, as St. Peter's successor, was given the teaching mission of the Church by Christ. St.Matt. 28:18-20.

From the pen of St.John, I know that the teaching authority in the Chruch has Divine protection, "These things I have spoken to you while yet dwelling with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your mind whatever I have said to you.....when the Advocate has come, whom I will send from the father,, He will bear witness concerning me, becasue from the beginning you are with me." 14:25-26, 15:26-27.

Christ made it quite clear when He said, "He who heareth you, heareth Me." Confirming that the teaching authority of the Chruch is the infallible voice of Christian truth St.Paul wrote, "I write these things to thee....that thou may know how to conduct thyself in the House of God, which is the Chruch of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of truth. 1Tim. 3:15.

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I have already done that.

No. You never did.

None of the forms of Judaism that were established after 70AD have these 3 holy things...and, if by some chance a Temple is built...it won't be holy as Our Lord God won't be there.

You not knowing or not recognising certain features of Judaism doesn't count.

Judaism still has priests and I have pointed this out time and time again.

Judaism still reveres the Temple and the remaining wall in Jerusalem is Judaism's holiest place.

And the Torah remains Judaism's holy scripture.

So please, go ahead and point out actual differences between what you call "Old Testament Judaism" and "modern Judaism", but make sure those are differences that Jews actually acknowledge and not just stuff you make up based on ignorance of Judaism.

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If the majority of Jews had listened to the prophets, including the one that Moses spoke of (Christ Himself), they would not have missed the Messias Christ's visitation.

When did Moses speak of Jesus?

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Quoting lulapilgrim,

comment 289

leauki posts: Yes. It's true. But bronze age Jews also took their religion for granted without inquiring deeply. It's called faith. Jews keep believing now what they believed then, regardless of reasons not to believe it. You found that out correctly. Judaism was granted. By G-d. And while Islam and Christianity have converted almost any nation they ever met or attacked, the people of Israel stuck to their own faith.
My, my, here you are speaking of Jews in a theological sense.
Now, we are getting somewhere.....Let's continue by going back to Isaias.
I wrote:
The Scriptures show that Christ intended the perfect development of the Mosaic religion (Christianity..Catholicism) to be distinct from the religion of the Synagaogue which has ended. Christ said, I will build My Chruch at the time the Synagague was already established. Christ prescribed new doctrines, new modes of worship, and a new form of authority. He even predicted to His Apostles, in the synagogue you shall be beaten." St.Mark 13:9. The intended disctinction of His Chruch from the prefigurative Synagague is most clear. CHRIST WAS FULLY AWARE OF THE PROPHECY OF ISAIAS 2:2, THAT ALL NATIONS WOULD BE CALLED TO HIS CHURCH.
to which you replied:
And here we go again. Isaias 2:2 says nothing about a "church". There isn't even a "calling".
Oh yes, the prophet Isaias chapter 2: 2-4 certainly predicted that all nations shall flow to the House of the Lord...in other word's, Christ's New Covenant Church.
Isaias 2:2-4 "And in the last days, the mountain of the House of the Lord shall be prepared on the top of mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it. And many poeple shall go and say, Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the Hous of the God of Jacob; ANd He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For the law will come forth from Sion, amd the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge the Gentiles and rebuke many people."
In Scripture, "In the last days" is the whole time of the New Covenant, the time from Christ's First Coming till the end of the world because no other time shall come after it but only eternity.
So, from the time of Christ until He Comes again in Judgment on the Last Day, all nations shall flow into the CC.
"on the top of mountains" shows the perpetual visibility of Christ's Church, for a mountian on top of a mountain cannot be hid."
Christ came and He established the religion of God, Christianity. As opposed to the one chosen people of the Jews, all nations will be represented amongst its members. And they will learn from His Chruch the ways of God and will walk in His path under its guidance. This promised New Covenant religion will originate in Jerusalem. Now, the NT shows Christ fulfilled this OT prophecy of Isaias. In St.Matt. 16:18, Christ says, "I will build My Church" upon Cephas, Peter. In 28:20, He prescribed its doctrines and commissioned it to go forth from Jerusalem teaching to observe all things I have commanded you. In 28:18, He gives His Church His authority, "Amen, I say to you whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven...." In the preceeding verse, He gives the Church judicial power, "If a man will not hear the Chruch, let him be as the heathen."
And He sends that Chruch no longer to the Jews only, but to the Gentiles also, saying, "teach all nations." His Chruch must remain one Chruch for it is to be "one fold under one shepherd". It is to last with the constitution He gave it until the end of the world and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. Behold, I am with you all days until the consummation of the world.
Leauki, all this obviously indicates a very definite religion and a very definite Church.

Slow down there Pilgrim! Just because it says in Isaiah 2:2 'In the after days' does not mean please insert 'church'. Again, this is a violation of the Golden Rule. One should take the verses in context before ever interjecting something else.

On the mountain top is referring to the temple which was built on mount Moriah. This is why it is called the mountain of the L-RD’s house. The temple, or the mountain on which it was reared, would be the object which would express the public worship of the TRUE LIVING G-D. That this would be elevated higher than all other hills, or mountains, meaning that the worship of the TRUE LIVING G-D would become an object so conspicuous as to be seen by all nations (the Jews were to be a light to ALL NATION something that refutes what you said that G-D came to one people. Which is a twist. G-D did come to one people BUT HE wanted to us that people as a LIGHT TO ALL NATIONS). The LIGHT would be SO BRIGHT that all nations would forsake other objects and places of worship, being attracted by the glory of the worship of the TRUE LIVING G-D.

It says nothing about all nations following to the 'CC'. It says nothing about vatcian or rome in FACT it says JERUSALEM! Jerusalem would be the EPIC CENTER FOR THIS ALL! Not rome, not vatican.

What would they be teaching there? 'church' doctrine? RCC doctrine so this would be a cachehism? No it says 'כִּי מִצִּיּוֹן תֵּצֵא תוֹרָה, וּדְבַר-יְהוָה מִירוּשָׁלִָם.' Zion break forth the TORAH (which is usually translated into law and this IS A VERY POOR translation for TORAH IS INSTRUCTION) the word (dabar is a play on word and power here for it is coming from G-D) of G-D.

Christ came and He established the religion of God, Christianity. As opposed to the one chosen people of the Jews, all nations will be represented amongst its members. And they will learn from His Chruch the ways of God and will walk in His path under its guidance.

Did G-D change? G-D's religion has been going on throughout all Scriptures. Scripture will and should be reflective of itself. In other words, all Scripture is a mirror reflection of itself and G-D.

+1

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What would they be teaching there? 'church' doctrine? RCC doctrine so this would be a cachehism? No it says 'כִּי מִצִּיּוֹן תֵּצֵא תוֹרָה, וּדְבַר-יְהוָה מִירוּשָׁלִָם.' Zion break forth the TORAH (which is usually translated into law and this IS A VERY POOR translation for TORAH IS INSTRUCTION) the word (dabar is a play on word and power here for it is coming from G-D) of G-D.

Exactly.

"Torah" derives from a root Yud Resh He. The G stem is "yarah".

"Yarah" today means "he shot" but originally meant "he threw" from "he cast (a die)" and ultimately, in long-forgotten time, "he decided".

From "liroth" = "to decide" derives the H (causative) stem "lehoroth" = "he made someone decide" = "he instructed".

And "torah" derives thence and is the means by which this happens, an "instruction".

(This follows the same mechanism as "yashav" = "he sat" -> "lehoshiv" = "to seat" -> "toshav" = "inhabitant".)

Did G-D change? G-D's religion has been going on throughout all Scriptures. Scripture will and should be reflective of itself. In other words, all Scripture is a mirror reflection of itself and G-D.

G-d always was open for all nations, not just the people of Israel. I believe G-d send prophets to many nations, for example Zoroaster to the Persians (who heeded his words).

When king Cyrus liberated Jerusalem, king Cyrus and his people were already blessed by G-d and on the right path, despite not being the "chosen people". Israel was chosen as a light to the nations. The Persians were chosen for another task. And even today Americans are chosen for something else still.

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LEAUKI POSTS 287

Fact is that Judaism as a religion already existed long before Jesus' birth......

What you mean by the word "as" here? That religion you are describing here is Old Testament Judaism.....so, what is OT Judaism other than a religion?

lula posts 296

....BINGO! And the Judaism which already existed long before Jesus' birth is NOT Rabbinic Talmudic Judaism which was devised in 90AD by revolutionary Jews who rejected Christ and everything concerning Christianity.

LEAUKI POSTS:

....... Jews continued living their old religion.

LULA POSTS:

No. Leauki...after 70AD, it was impossible for Jews to continue to "live their old religion."

"living the old religion" (Biblical Judaism) required 3 holy things...High priests. Temple Altar, Torah prescribed sacrifices in that Temple. From 70AD, these are of the historic past.

Furthermore, the Jewish Encyclopedia rightly declares, that "the official genealogies disappeared with the destruction of the Temple" that this was "deplored as a calamity" vol 5, page. 597, that "it is extremely rare to find a Jewish family that even claims to trace its ancestry further back than the 16th century. vol 9 page 517.

lula POSTS:

None of the forms of Judaism that were established after 70AD have these 3 holy things...and, if by some chance a Temple is built...it won't be holy as Our Lord God won't be there.

LEAUKI 304

You not knowing or not recognising certain features of Judaism doesn't count.

Judaism still has priests and I have pointed this out time and time again.

Judaism still reveres the Temple and the remaining wall in Jerusalem is Judaism's holiest place.

And the Torah remains Judaism's holy scripture.

So please, go ahead and point out actual differences between what you call "Old Testament Judaism" and "modern Judaism", but make sure those are differences that Jews actually acknowledge and not just stuff you make up based on ignorance of Judaism.

As to the differences....

OT Judaism is the holy religion that God gave through Moses. All the forms of the modern religion of Judaism that arose after 70AD are of men who reject Christ.

The principles as set forth in the Torah (Pentateuch) make plain the fact that OT Judaism of God is of an authoritative, priestly, sacrificial, character.

Leviticus is a liturgical Book which tells in detail the the duties of the Aaronic priests and the sacrifices they were to offer to God for the people of Israel.

You claim there are Jewish priests today...OK, if so, those Jewish priests have no authority as did the Aaronic priesthood who were keepers of God's Laws and determiners of their application. In fact, no one speaks with Torah authority today in either the Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, or Reconstructionist divisions of modern day Jewry.

Another difference is that the Jews of today have Rabbis, not priests and that's becasue the sacrificing priesthood ended with the Temple.

The Jews of the Old Mosaic Covenant believed "that atonement comes through blood", which is "the life of the flesh" Lev. 7:11, In the Mosaic law "forgiveness" comes primarily through the shedding of the blood of animals.

That's why Rightwinger back at the beginning of this thread asked, "what do Jews do now to atone for their sins?" And your answer was "We fast".

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

You are reading Apoc. 20:1-6 and listening to men as to what it means....Marv and Rapturists, Dispensationalists, Pre-Millennialists, Christian Zionists and so on.

You're going to have to make up your mind Lula. which is it? Marv has nothing to do with what Revelation 20 tells us about the Millennium. So now instead of inserting Luther and Calvin you're putting in Marv as my latest guru? hmmmm smooth. In other words you can't stick with the topic so you have to go on the attack again. Every single time I get you in a corner you do this. Every single time. It really doesn't matter tho does it because I'm just not listening to the RCC and that's all that matters.

After looking carefully at these verses of Apoc. 20:1-6, I agree with Pope Pius XII. That there will be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ physically present on earth in Jerusalem is NOT TAUGHT OR EVEN IMPLIED IN THIS VISION or any other vision for that matter.

Surprise, Surprise, Surprise...NOT. You just blasted me for listening to Marv, rapturists (not sure who they are) Zionists etc and here you are admitting you're listening to man. I've ONLY brought up scripture to you here. This is very hypocritical Lula.

A thousand years is a thousand years Lula. It's not symbolic. It's to be taken literally. That's why it's mentioned six times. For emphasis. God is clear. It will be a thousand years.

You see this type of repetition many times in scripture. Take Genesis 1:27 for example:

"So God created man in his own image in the image of God He created he him; male and female created he them."

He mentions this three times in one verse for emphasis knowing quite well down the road this would come into question. Did a God really create mankind? So you see you can't take it literally in Genesis and not in Revelation. There's absolutely no reason not to.

You may not even know this (maybe you do) but you're actually folliwing an African Donatist named Tyconius who developed a view of the Millennium that the RCC followed. When he came to Rev 20 he interpreted the thousand years in nonliteral terms and understood the period as referring to the church age (like you do), the time betwen the first and second comings. Augustine following Tyconius followed suit with this interpretation and for centuries to come this was the viewpoint. But remember this was well before (4th Century) before the first thousand years after Christ had finished.

The much earlier position (the early church before 4th century) unquestionably held to the teaching of an earthly, historical reign of peace that was to follow the defeat of Antichrist and the physical resurrection of the saints but precede both the judgment and the new creation.

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Marv has nothing to do with what Revelation 20 tells us about the Millennium.

You suggested your teacher Marv's website. and guess what...you and he are mouthing the same endtime fable--Dispensationalism....PreMillennialism --after Our Lord's Second Coming, you and he predict a future literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

You suggested your teacher Marv's website. and guess what...you and he are mouthing the same endtime fable--Dispensationalism....PreMillennialism --after Our Lord's Second Coming, you and he predict a future literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Lula, I believed this for years and years way before I met Marv (2 1/2 yrs ago). My belief in the Millennium has NOTHING to do with Marv. Nothing. The fact that he believes as I do (as well as centuries of Christians) just means we're reading the same book. You just admitted you're listening to a Pope who told you differently. Marv and I believe in the 1,000 year reign of Christ because that's exactly what it says...SIX TIMES in one Chapter.

I'll take the book anyday over man's opinion. "Did God really say?"

I've been studying the fall of Eve this past Mother's Day as I was invited to give a talk at a woman's luncheon. I taught about the craftiness of Satan's deception in how he worked Eve. He operates still today as an angel of light working in deception and disguise (even as a Pope).

When dealing with the enemy who doesn't deal in truth be careful to not take anything at face value. Let God's words be your authority...not man's. As soon as Satan tricked her into questioning God it was only a matter of time before she went her own independent way.

When we shade God's truth just a little bit it can have a disastrous impact in our lives.

Eve taught us that talking with the devil and walking with the Lord do NOT go hand in hand. That's what I believe you're trying to do.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

You suggested your teacher Marv's website.

When did I do this? I told Leauki he would love Marv's CD on "Israel Under Seige" and "Zion's Fire" but I don't recall saying anything here about going to Marv's website for information. I don't even go on that myself because I see him weekly and I get "Zion's Fire."

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Marv has nothing to do with what Revelation 20 tells us about the Millennium. So now instead of inserting Luther and Calvin you're putting in Marv as my latest guru? hmmmm smooth. In other words you can't stick with the topic so you have to go on the attack again.

Marv, your endtime "lastest guru"!! Hmmm...interesting....your words, not mine.

Teasing aside, I have stuck with the topic..which for the most part has concerned the endtimes.

Attack? C'mon? Your belief in a literal 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ is in common with other Dispensationalists, Pre-Milleniallists, Christian Zionists, and Rapturists.

It's either correct or it isn't. The Magesterium of the Catholic Church has rejected that belief system and that's good enough for me. And just to show that I am sticking with this topic, I brought up the Church's teaching on this very subject ... in post 157 I wrote:

Post 157

Rapturists and Millennialists believe verse 26 was fulfilled in 70AD......and then there is this time gap........2,000 year and going .........verse 27 is in the future and centers on ethnic Israel rebuilding the Jerusalem Temple and the coming of the Messias who will set up His earthly Messianic Kingdom and rule over it for 1,000 years. This falsification of the kingdom is called Millenarianism which the CC has rejected....see the Catechism of the CC # 676.

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KFC posts:

You just admitted you're listening to a Pope who told you differently.

Yes, and Pope Pius XII is a successor to St. Peter to whom Christ gave the keys to the very Messianic kingdom of God you believe is a future earthly kingdom Christ will reign over for a 1,000 years.

Remember St. Matt. 16:18-19? "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of Hell will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven."

Here it is clear, crystal clear, that when Christ said this to St.Peter, He was setting up His Messianic kingdom and gave St.Peter the keys..it is the Church that will be in existance for a 1,000 year Millennium, that is, the Church age...which will be a long period of time that will last until Christ's Second Coming when the Messianic kingdom will be glorified in the eternal New Heavens and New earth.

Now, as a successor to St.Peter, Pope Pius XII holds the keys to the Messianic kingdom (the Church) and he made a "binding" decision when he officially rejected the belief system known as Millennarianism as a system of interpretation that "cannot be taught safely."

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Marv and I believe in the 1,000 year reign of Christ because that's exactly what it says...SIX TIMES in one Chapter.

You wrote in post 248:

The Jews are central in the earthly kingdom to be set up by Christ when He returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. They will be the leading nation and Jerusalem the world capital when Christ personally takes over the reins of the government of the world.

To which I replied:

Where is any of this in Scripture? ................................Save your time...it isn't there.

When Christ returns Scripture tells us it will be on the last day of this earth to judge the living and the dead; not to set up His earthly kingdom.

Jesus Christ died and lives again. Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords now seated at the right hand of the Father. He possesses all power in Heaven and on earth. He is far above all rule, authority, power and dominion for the Father has put "all things under His feet". Christ is Lord over the cosmos and of history.

Since the Ascension, God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. Christ the Lord has already set up His earthly kingdom, the Church. As Lord, Christ is Eternal Head of the Church, which is His Body. Christ dwells on earth in His Church. LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN....CHRIST DWELLS ON EARTH IN HIS CHURCH. Christ by the Holy Spirit exercises His authority over His Church.

Christ's kingdom is already present on earth, the seed, and in mystery, the beginning of the eternal heavenly Kingdom, the glorious Messianic New Jerusalem which according to the prophets will bring all men justice, love and peace. Is. 11:9.

We are in "the last days". The Church, Christ's kingdom is already endowed with a sanctity that is real but imperfect. 1Cor. 10:11. This reign is under attack by the evil powers, even though they've been defeated by Christ's Passover. 2Thess. 2:7. According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness to His Gospel, but a time marked by distress and trial of evil which does not spare the Chruch and ushers in the struggles of the endtimes.

KFC, it is a time of waiting, of watching and of praying, not taking Scripture and looking at events in the Middle East and the European Union and making endtime predictions about a literal 1,000 year physical reign of Christ.

The antichrist deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made about this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of Millenarianism.

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What you mean by the word "as" here? That religion you are describing here is Old Testament Judaism.....so, what is OT Judaism other than a religion?

I don't know what "Old Testament Judaism" is.

But Judaism is a religion.

Let's go through the list of "differences" between "Old Testament Judaism" and current Judaism:

OT Judaism is the holy religion that God gave through Moses. All the forms of the modern religion of Judaism that arose after 70AD are of men who reject Christ.

Current Judaism is also the holy religion that G-d gave through Moses. "Rejecting Christ" was merely a continuation of that religion in face of several Messiah claimants.

Your first "difference" is just a repition of your claim.

The principles as set forth in the Torah (Pentateuch) make plain the fact that OT Judaism of God is of an authoritative, priestly, sacrificial, character.

Yes.

But how is current Judaism different from that?

Leviticus is a liturgical Book which tells in detail the the duties of the Aaronic priests and the sacrifices they were to offer to God for the people of Israel.

Yes.

You claim there are Jewish priests today...OK, if so, those Jewish priests have no authority as did the Aaronic priesthood who were keepers of God's Laws and determiners of their application. In fact, no one speaks with Torah authority today in either the Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, or Reconstructionist divisions of modern day Jewry.

There are Jewish priests today. It's a fact. And they do have that authority when the Temple stands.

In Judaism nobody ever spoke with Torah authority except the Torah and the prophets.

Another difference is that the Jews of today have Rabbis, not priests and that's because the sacrificing priesthood ended with the Temple.

What do you mean "another difference"? You haven't listed any differences yet.

Judaism has had rabbis and priests for over 3000 years. Those roles were always distinct.

And yes, sacrifices (but not the priesthood) ended with the Temple. But when the Temple is rebuilt, they will start again.

Incidentally, sacrifices also ended during the Babylonian Exile and in the time before the rededication of the Temple in the event we celebrate with Hanukkah every year.

The Jews of the Old Mosaic Covenant believed "that atonement comes through blood", which is "the life of the flesh" Lev. 7:11, In the Mosaic law "forgiveness" comes primarily through the shedding of the blood of animals.

So?

That's why Rightwinger back at the beginning of this thread asked, "what do Jews do now to atone for their sins?" And your answer was "We fast".

Yes. Since the Temple isn't standing there are no sacrifices so we continue with the other method which was also in use during Temple times.

So please, just tell me those alleged differences.

Do NOT just repeat your claim.

Do NOT just go into detail with your faulty knowledge of Judaism.

Tell me at least ONE difference between what you see as "Old Testament Judaism" and current Judaism which is NOT based on your ignorance of the role of rabbis and priests and which is NOT a coincidence relying on the fact that the Temple is currently destroyed again.

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Yes, and Pope Pius XII is a successor to St. Peter

Says Pope Pius XII.

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I told Leauki he would love Marv's CD on "Israel Under Seige" and "Zion's Fire"

Yes, and I looked into it and found it interesting. Thanks for the hint!

That reminds me, Lula, any word yet on how Catholic Priests are priests in the order of Melchizedek when you also told us that Judaism (and not Melchizedek's pre-Mosaic religion) was the first divine and priestly religion?

Was Melchizedek a legitimate and real priest of G-d or not?

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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When Christ returns Scripture tells us it will be on the last day of this earth to judge the living and the dead; not to set up His earthly kingdom.

You might want to read Psalm 2 among many other scriptures that show otherwise. This is the Messiah the Jews are still waiting for. This is a Messianic Psalm and HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. As always I go to scripture.

"Yet have I set my king (Jesus) upon My holy hill of Zion (Mt Moriah-Jerusalem). I will declare the decree the Lord has said unto me, Thou are my Son; this day have I begotten thee (day of coronation-hasn't happened yet). Ask of me and I shall give you the heathen for thine inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron you shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." v6-9

Now you go to Revelation 2 and you see the future of this still yet to happen so it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with the church because John is writing this in 90 A.D.

"And HE shall rule them with a rod of iron as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers...." 2:27

"And out of HIS mouth (Christ) goes a sharp sword (His WORD) and with it he should smite the nations and HE shall rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." 19:15

note to Leauki. THis is what the Jews wanted to happen in the 1st century but they didn't understand that it will happen not on their time schedule but God's. It will happen. Jesus is the Messiah and when he comes back He's coming as King and will rule on earth with Jerusalem as his seat on earth. He promised He would be back. The reason for all this goes all the way back to Abraham. All nations will be blessed as a result. If he came back as King the first time (as the Jews thought) the promise to Abraham would not have been kept. God always keeps his promises.

Since the Ascension, God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. Christ the Lord has already set up His earthly kingdom, the Church.

See here you go again. What scripture are you referring? Jesus said himself:

"My KINGDOM is NO PART OF THIS WORLD!" John 18:36

So who do I believe? You or Jesus Christ himself? I notice you give no scripture to back your words. Again why would I go to man when I can read God's revealed Word to mankind? This world was NEVER meant to be our home.

Says Pope Pius XII.

no kidding! The Pope speaks and they all listen. Reminds me again of what Jesus said:

"I am come in my Father's name and you receive me not; if another shall come in his own name him you will receive." John 5:43

Basically he's saying you won't follow me or my word even tho I come in the name of my Father, but you will follow someone who comes in their own name; other messiahs you will listen to and believe me the Popes are "other Messiahs" in the RCC.

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Was Melchizedek a legitimate and real priest of G-d or not?

Yes he was. When I think Melchisedech... I think sacrifice, a "clean oblation" as per the OT prophet Malachais 1:11. The "clean oblation" he offered in thanksgiving to God was bread and wine.

The OT is full of references to sacrifices as prescribed by God Himself. It's an offering to God of some sanctified object made by a legitimate priest.

That reminds me, Lula, any word yet on how Catholic Priests are priests in the order of Melchisedek when you also told us that Judaism (and not Melchizedek's pre-Mosaic religion) was the first divine and priestly religion?

In Psalm 109 King Davod prophesied of Christ, "thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech." St.Paul applied the same words to Christ in Hebrews 5:6. Again Melchisedech offered a sacrfice of bread and wine. So according "to the order of Melchisedech" means the priesthood of Christ would be like that of Melchisedech. His sacrfice must be of bread and wine.

In verses 10-11, Malachais speaks of the sacrfice of the New Covenant (Law). "I have no pleasure in you (priests of Jewry), saith the Lord of Hosts, and I will not receive a gift of your hand. For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles and in every place there is sacrifice and there is offered to My name a clean oblation."

So, at the time of Christ's death on the Cross and the Temple Veil was rent into from top to bottom, clearly and definitely the sacrifice of the Old Law is rejected by God, and its place is to be taken by a clean (unbloody) sacrifice offered universally (from the rising of the sun to its going down) by the Gentiles. The Sacrifice of the New Covenant is to consist of an unbloody offering to God under the rite of bread and wine by the Gentiles all over the world.

In Scriputre, sacrifice has a special meaning and it must be offered by a priest and presented by him to God alone for and in the name of the people.

So sacrfice was an essential element in Old Covenant Judaism and is in the holy religion of Jesus Christ...New Covenant Christianity and specificlally Catholicism. The New Covenant in the Precious Blood of Christ fulfilled and completed the Old Covenant.

The Apostles as well as the early Fathers of the Chruch used expressions as "sacrifice, oblation, host, offering, victim, altar,and priest in reference to Christ's institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper on HOly Thursday the day before He died on the Cross.

At the Last Supper holding the bread, Christ said, This is My Body which is given for you....and then holding the cup ...This is the chalice of the New Testament in my blood which shall be shed for you." The meaning is clear, that His Body and Blood were "here and now" being offered for sacrfice eucharistically as on the next day It would be offered physically.

The Holy Eucharist is not only a Sacrament but the One Sacrifice of the New Covenant Law and as a sacrifice we call it the Holy Mass.

The short of it is Jesus Christ is the eternal High Priest of the New Law, in virtue of His Sacrficial death on the Cross. The eucharistic sacrifice according to the rite of Melchisedech fulfilled the prophecy of Malchais was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper. On Calvary, Christ made once and for all the necessary sacrifice of reparation. Christ is a Priest forever and Cathoic priests (by the imposition of hands ---Holy Orders) are merely His agents offering Sacrifice in His Name.

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This is what the Jews wanted to happen in the 1st century but they didn't understand that it will happen not on their time schedule but God's. It will happen. Jesus is the Messiah and when he comes back He's coming as King and will rule on earth with Jerusalem as his seat on earth. He promised He would be back. The reason for all this goes all the way back to Abraham. All nations will be blessed as a result. If he came back as King the first time (as the Jews thought) the promise to Abraham would not have been kept. God always keeps his promises.

I told you before that I will be fine with all that if he comes back and fullfills all prophecies.

I am not arguing with Jesus, I am arguing with his followers.

Yes he was. When I think Melchisedech... I think sacrifice, a "clean oblation" as per the OT prophet Malachais 1:11. The "clean oblation" he offered in thanksgiving to God was bread and wine.

Blablabla, what does that mean "When I think Melchisedech... I think sacrifice"?

When I think Melchizedek I think "king of the Canaanite city that happened to worship the same god as Abraham".

Nevertheless you haven't answered my question.

How can you count Melchizedek as a legitimate priest if at the same time you claim that Judaism, a religion created 400 years after his death was the first priestly and divine religion?

You cannot have priests without a religion.

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As for your going on and on, Lula, about "Old Testamant Judaism", it is very clear that you don't know much about Judaism, almost nothing about bronze age societies, and even less (if that is even possible) about comparative religion.

The Jews might have been wrong when they rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

But to claim that it was "revolutionary" for the Jews to reject Jesus is nonsense.

(Was the CC "revolutionary" for rejecting the reforms proposed by Luther or was Luther the revolutionary?)

Anyway, if you want to understand the god of Israel, you will have to start in Jerusalem. Because according to the Torah, before Abraham even learned of Him and understood that He was the only god, one Canaanite city already worshipped Him.

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lula posts:

When Christ returns Scripture tells us it will be on the last day of this earth to judge the living and the dead; not to set up His earthly kingdom.

This is the Messiah the Jews are still waiting for.

The Jews may still be waiting for the Messias to come but they wait in vain. Anyone after Christ who claims to be the Messias is a false Messias is antichrist. So please stop KFC encouraging this blasphemy.

Christ is not coming back as Messias...been there; done that....The Messias came and established the New Covenant of Grace. Christ is coming back one more time at the end of the world, time and history to JUDGE the living and the dead and to take His kingdom now glorified into the eternal New Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth.

Any Jewish person who wants to be saved and enter into the Kingdom of God must do as St.Peter told the multitude of men of Israel that gathered in Jerusalem at Pentecost. Read Acts. 2:21-36. It cuts to the heart. Verse 37, after hearing the truth, they ask St.Peter, what shall we do? He tells them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Verses 39-42, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Him." He said "save yourselves from this crooked generation." 3,000 were added that day and "they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers (the primitive form of the Holy Mass.)

Knock, knock, KFC, the Messias Christ of Psalm 2 has already come....the majority of the Jews missed His visitation. But St.Paul teaches it's not too late for them to be grafted into Christ's Body...through baptism. While the Jewish people remain most dear to God for the sake of Abraham and Moses, nevertheless, becasue of unbelief they were broken off from the olive tree which is Christ. But "if they abide not sitll in unbelief, shall be grafted in : for God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:20-23, 28.

How shall the Jews be grafted in? By conversion and baptism the Jews can be reincorporated into the sole and exclusive covenant people of God which is the Cathoalic Chuuch, the kingdom of Heaven, just as St.Paul himself was. Of the Jewish race, "there is a remnant saved accroding to the election of grace. 11:5 and that remnant consists of those Jews who repent, are batpitzed and become members of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Catholic Church.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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Anyway, if you want to understand the god of Israel, you will have to start in Jerusalem. Because according to the Torah, before Abraham even learned of Him and understood that He was the only god, one Canaanite city already worshipped Him.

good point Leauki although I'm not sure how we can know "before Abrham even learned of Him". Melchizedek came from Salem which was an old name for Jerusalem. Everything starts and ends with Jerusalem. Not Rome. In fact even Peter called Rome Babylon. They can't deny that. Babylon in scripture is NEVER a good thing to be called. Salem means peace and someday the King of Peace will come to the City of Peace and all will be good. Melchizedek typified Christ. Ps 110:4 because Christ will hold the office of both Priest and King which is a very unusual office.

I told you before that I will be fine with all that if he comes back and fullfills all prophecies.

He will. But keep in mind what was said about Abraham:

"and He believed in the Lord and he counted "it" to him for righteousness." Gen 15:6

Abraham believed this would happen way before you or I or Jesus were even born. That's true faith. Believing in what hasn't happened yet but yet knowing it will because God said it would. Just like Abraham believed in the promise so too are we to believe in the future promise that He will come back and set things right. Right now what's happening is God's allowing his cup of wrath to fill. When it starts to spill over...watch out. Then it will be too late. Just like in Noah's day it will be again.

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KFC posts:

"And HE shall rule them with a rod of iron as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers...." 2:27

"And out of HIS mouth (Christ) goes a sharp sword (His WORD) and with it he should smite the nations and HE shall rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." 19:15

note to Leauki. THis is what the Jews wanted to happen in the 1st century but they didn't understand that it will happen not on their time schedule but God's. It will happen.

Ever since Christ's First Advent, it has happened; is happening now and will continue to happen until the end of the world.

Jesus is the Messiah and when he comes back He's coming as King and will rule on earth with Jerusalem as his seat on earth.

The highlighted is unBiblical as well as enditme fantasy.

He promised He would be back. The reason for all this goes all the way back to Abraham.

Yes, absolutely true...Christ will come back only one more time...Christ came the first time in Perfect Mercy; the second time will be in Perfect Justice.

The reason for all this is becasue the Lord God is gracious and patient and plenteous in mercy so as to save man's soul and make him eternally happy.

All nations will be blessed as a result.

What's this will be blessed nonsense? All nations HAVE been blessed by Christ's First Advent. After all, He died and redeemed all mankind and opened the gates of Heaven that were shut as a consequence of Adam's sin. Daniel's six blessings have already been bestowed by Christ's First Advent.

If he came back as King the first time (as the Jews thought) the promise to Abraham would not have been kept.

"If He came back as King the first time..." What does that mean? Don't you mean, if he came as King the first time?

God always keeps his promises.

Agree.

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