And if it's not level, blame the people who set the rules for setting bad rules.  If someone is cheating, punish them.  But if everyone is cheating, that means the game sucks and the rules need to be fixed.  

Someone who gets ahead by working within the system isn't at fault, even if you don't like the system.  Fix the system. 

In other news about corporate honchos who contribute nothing to the well-being of patients (or anyone else), Mark Zuckerburg was paid $2.3 billion this year.

So, there's that.

of course you two agree, you're made from the same cloth. I'm guessing X-gen by the sound of it.

See, you guys know what I'm talking about. Exploiting the rules to your benefit at the expense of others doesn't make it okay. In some instances those that are able to self regulate make the rules, again at the expense of others. I understand why you think it's okay but it's not.

Really, possibly you're just being contrary, it's difficult to imagine you agreeing with those underlying sentiments.

gmc2 ....life is a 'competition'.  It has rules.  People live 'within' those rules.  The more adept succeed in managing/interpreting those rules better than others.

The exact same thing occurs with Formula One. [and any other competitive 'event']

It ain't rocket surgery...

So, you actually believe that I am incapable of making some informed opinion of you based upon what you say within these forums. By your response it would seem that I have a better idea of you than you of me. Anytime you wish to compare notes, let me know.

I appreciate the humor so early in the morning, thanks. However, I don't think that because others cheat that it makes it okay to do so. If someone does something to benefit themselves knowingly that it will be at the expense of others then they're buttheads. It's not like racing, if you lose you can always race tomorrow. Those that lost their life savings may not have a tomorrow. Screwing people over shouldn't be trivialized.

I am Gen-X actually, just barely.  By a year or two.  What of it? 

Does that somehow invalidate my opinion?  

no, of course not but the "what of it?" part is unnecessary, don't you think. Anyhow, it does provide me with glimpse and better understanding of how those opinions have formed.

myself am a baby boomer, grew up in Berkeley during the 60's (t'was the best of times). I'm sure you can deduct a lot just from this.

Soft political corruption and too many Angelo Mozillo's.  But, warts and all, it still beats every other system ever tried.  Until humans are removed from the equation (or the planet), we'll still be contending with these issues in one form or another.

you're so funny, I forgot to laugh. or, what no bouncing breasts. (and don't call me dear)

Corporations don't make the rules.  They are using their influence to fill a gap in oversight of the government left by citizens.  

Ultimately, in the United States at least, citizens are responsible for the rules by which we live.  If the system is corrupted and broken it's the citizenry's fault for not paying enough attention and for not holding their representatives accountable.  People would rather spend their life on Facebook and tweeting and drinking and paying no attention to how this country is actually run.  And that's their right.  

However, in this country, under out system of government, we get exactly the government we deserve.  The success of democracy depends upon an informed and interested citizenry.  We don't have that, at least not in any real numbers.  When I said earlier in this thread that I thought our citizenry is dumb, that wasn't flippant.  I meant it.  As a whole, I have virtually no respect for the average American citizen as a citizen. The generations alive now in various states of running the show, baby-boomers, gen-x, millennials, have been given the greatest gift of any generation of human beings in the history of our species and we turned it into obsession with what Kim Kardashian thinks 140 characters at a time.  

But you know what?  Even in its imperfect and currently somewhat broken form, our system is still the best around because it's still the only one that, at least to some extent, aligns the incentives of individuals with what will ultimately benefit the system as a whole.  If you want to go out and be successful, you're welcome to try and if you can succeed at what you want to do, everyone else benefits by the jobs/wealth/culture you generate.  This is still the system of Google and Facebook and Tesla and Space-X and Apple and Microsoft.  Our system has still created a level of productivity unimaginable even 100 years ago.  We have created a growth in average quality of life that is slowly making its way around the world and will, provided we don't completely fuck up, eventually lead to a world that seems like a 1940s Sci-Fi novel Utopian paradise.  It'll be bumpy and messy and there will be mistakes along the way certainly, but that's the direction we're going despite the fact that our system has such problems.  

We could do better, if we wanted to.  But clearly we, as a society, don't want to put in the effort.  

As an side:  This is why I think the idea that we will somehow end up with singlepayer out of this mess is so wrong.  The only time that disinterested citizenry becomes interested and mobilized to action is when some event directly and noticeably affects them individually.  The coming healthcare premium increases and/or "If you like your plan you can keep it" plan cancellations will do that.