Hey KFC and Lulapilgrim! It's great to be back! How have you been?
Ok, from the niceties to the Nice-ities ;~D
When Christ said "when you see me you see the Father" is pretty close. But...Jesus did NOT come as the Father. He came as the Son of God and the son of man.
True, He did say that, but you yourself go on to say that He did not come "as the Father", He came as the Son. He also said many times that the doctrine He taught was not of Him, but His Fathar who sent him. He also said that He was not there to fulfill His goals, but the goals of His Father who sent him. If it is not His, He can't be the Father.... and as I said before, never once claimed to be.
Ok, in answering these questions I'm giving you my own beliefs on the topics, you are free to accept them or reject them... Since I'm not God, nor Jesus, I'm not qualified to tell you what to believe. As always, don't take my word for anyting, turn to our Heavenly Father in prayer, in the name of Jesus Christ for the confirmation of all truth.
How do you explain these quotes..one from the OT and one from the NT?
Jehovah God said:
"I, even I am the Lord and beside me there is no Savior. Isa 43:11
Simple, Jehovah is not The Father, but Jesus. you say that "Jehova God" said that, but out of the 4 times the word "Jehovah" and the 693 times the word "God" appears in the OT, never once does the term "Jehovah God" appear.
Even Trinitarians don't believe that the Father is the savior, so this quote in Isaiah should settle the argument.
Said of the baby Jesus:
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11
Right, the savior, Christ the Lord was born. Unless you are going to say that the Father is the savior... which can't be since we know that Jesus is the ONLY name under heaven by which mankind can be saved. If Jesus is the only name, then The Father isn't the one that will save us.
Jehovah God said:
"I am the Lord, that is my name and my glory will I not give to another, Isa 42:8
Once again, "Jehovah God" isn't ever used in the OT. However, the Lord simply said that He gives His glory to anyone. I don't see how The Lord saying He won't give His glory to another means that He is the Father
"And now O father glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was." John 17:4
This is blatantly obvious. I can't see how it can be any more obvious to anyone. He addresses Father, then asks His Father to glorify Him with "YOUR" (as in not His) "own self". Which Jesus had "WITH" The Father (not "as" the Father) before the world was. If Jesus was with the Father before the world was, then He wasn't The Father
Jehovah God said:
"Thus said the Lord the King of Israel and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts; "I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Right, "The Lord", "King of Israel" "Redeemer" and "Lord of Hosts" are all titles for Jesus. The Father never uses any of them to describe Himself. We don't worship Jesus,
These are examples where I will say that I understand why it people believe that it means God and Jesus are one. However, you can't pick and choose the passages of scripture that back your argument and ignore those that don't. The fact still remains that Jesus constantly said, "not of me" and "of my Father who sent me", along with other references to the Father not being Jesus.
So my question to you is, how to you explain all those examples?
To believe Jesus you have to accept that He spoke of His Father as separate from Himself. Are you saying He lied? Of course not.
The Father is the God we worship and there is no other. Jesus is Hi only begotten son, who was the creator of all things and our savior.
Said of Jesus:
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD. The WORD was made flesh (ginomai and means from one type of existence to another) and dwelt (skenoo) among us..." John 1:1, 14
How can you seriously not see that Jesus, according to the scriptures, is the OT Jehovah? Unless you've been taught "of men" otherwise? Jesus is God. It's complex, I agree. Hard to understand, agree as well. Someday we will be able to put this all together but right now all I can do is believe what the scriptures are saying. Jesus said when you see me you see the Father and no man can see God because God is spirit. Jesus is God in the Flesh.
I do accept that Jesus is the OT Jehovah. I also know that Jesus, while in the flesh, constantly said that He was sent by the Father, not by Himself. He constantly said that the doctrine was of His Father who sent Him, not of Himself. So again, how can Jesus be the Father when He said He isn't?
Another point, if Jesus is God in the flesh, how could Jehovah be Jesus before He was born of Mary? My answer would be simple, Jesus didn't start existing when He was born of Mary, He existed and (among other names and titles) went by Jehovah in his Pre flesh life. Or do you believe that Jehovah was flesh in the OT? (That question isn't a challenge, I'm asking you your opinion of that).
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his Kingdom to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henseforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this." Isaiah 9:6-7
All those wonderful words and none of them contradict what Jesus said about His relationship to His Father.
Another thought...do you know that Jehovah is not mentioned anymore after Jesus came? While the OT has Jehovah God all thru it, the NT does not. Why? Because Jesus is Jehovah! "When you see me you see the Father."
That is among the things we agreed on here, that Jehovah was Jesus in the OT times. But again, nowhere in the Bible does it say "Jehovah God".
As I said at the beginning, you are free to believe anything you want, as for myself, I will believe what Jesus said... and Jesus said:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do anothing of myself; but as my bFather hath ctaught me, I dspeak these things.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and acame
from God; neither came I of myself
, but he bsent
Now, you have shared your answers to the questions, and I have shared mine. For me, I'll leave it up to the readers to decide which (if either) they want to accept or reject. Don't take my word for any of this. Our Heavenly Father has given us the blessing of prayer. It is the way we can take all our questions to Him so that we don't have to take the word of any man or woman. We get to take our questions to Him, and get our answers first hand.