Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

FOG of WAR

Details most people aren't even aware of..

The fog of war in Galactic Civilizations II is going to be quite different than in the first one. Much of that is due to the 3D engine.

But you would be surprised how many details go into the fog of war. What color should it be. It's in space so unexplored can't be black. It had a slightly violet hue to it in the first Galactic Civilizations. We decided to go with that again.

But then there's the matter of how to treat zones of influence. In the first GalCiv zones of control was by sector. Now it's based on the individual planets in a particular sector. That means they tend to be irregularly shaped.

But how should the fog of war deal with that? Your zone of control/influence may extend beyond your sensor range. Should it paint over the fog of war? Be hidden? Or only extend to your explored area. What about alien civlizliations? Should you get to see their zones before you've made contact with them? The realisitc option is obvious but what about the fun part? It's not a no brainer.

So that's what the engine team was working on. Meanwhile, the Arcean models were being heavily tweaked by the art team and we got some new ships in. We did get bad news that the new artist we were trying to get in won't be able to join us due to some family issues. So we still need a lead 3D modeler for our Master fantasy game we have in preproduction (lead 3D modeler means you have 5 to 10 years of real experience btw).

The UI team is going well but the new planet design screen has been a real challenge to do. It's so much more important but we want the game not to seem like a spread sheet or too complex. So that's really been tough.

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Ok - I'm throwing my 5 cents here...

We might have:
- sensor range (SR -ie what we're able to see on the map)
- zone of influence (ZOI - I assume it's something similar to what we have in GC today...)
- zone of control (ZOC - as we may have in many tactical games - ie a zone that usually borders a ship, where an enemy ship gets slowed down ).

Let's start with the last one. I'd love to have proper ZOCs.
Ok, we're talking about a strategic game rather than a tactical one and I am aware of the scale of the game.
Even on this scale, and especially if we're going to have a fleet management I'd love to have ZOCs (at least from capital ships). They should influence ship movement and engagements/disengagements. We might open up a new set of techs to improve this (stealth, "ship locking/unlocking" techs/starbases, more powerful engines, etc).
ZOCs do not necessarily need to be representedon the map. Or we could have them activated as a grid when selecting an unit. Shouldn't be much of a challenge.

ZOI
Well... first of all we'd need to understand what we're talking about here - ie what will it mean? How will it influence the game/battle/production/ect?
From a conceptual standpoint, ZOIs are something that shouldn't be crisply defined. Btw where does the ZOI of UK end up today?
The ideal representation would be a coloured map, with colour merging at the borders. But that might end up with a very unpleasant representation - unless there is a side map for this. (btw I'd like to have the option to have MANY minimaps open at the same time in a windowed mode).
I think also that we should to see in this minimap a grey portion for the civilizations that are far away. Maybe if the influence of the known civilizations in a given sector is less than the influence of the unknown ones, the sector should remain grey.
We might also decide to develop a specific technology (influence sensor?) to be able to determine the influence - and therefore, studying the influence, to identify the civs "producing" the influence (influence / civ identifier?). That would help in huge / gigantic maps.

We have now the problem that ZOI is not going to be the same within a sector. Ok - we might have a zoom on the same minimap. But again - question is why should we take a look? What will be altered by an high (low) influence in a certain point in spacetime?

SR
I agree with you here. The deal is to find something which is a compromise between playability and good graphics... but the only way to judge it is just by playing

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

I think the whole shifting/non-fixed borders idea is really cool. I think it might be good to have zones of influence only extend as far as you can see or have already explored; it makes sense that an empire wouldn't have that much influence over something it can't see or somewhere it's never been. Seeing alien influences when they haven't been met yet isn't such a big deal, because maybe the player's peons could have heard of it before actual diplomacy begins.

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Heres a question thats related to the fog of war issue and how the AI handles it.

Will alien civs have foreknowledge of where all the inhabitable planets and resources are and thus the whole fog of war thing is irrelevant to the AI? I know that was a big complaint throughout GC1 and I guess the big question is whether it is an issue that can even be addressed in GC2 or does it just require a level of AI programming that is not possible.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

The AI still has to deal with the fog of war. That was the case in GalCiv 1 and it will be more so the case in GalCiv 2. Whether the AI will know the locations of yellow stars or not is of some discussion still.

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red areas, and pitch black for unexplored.

Morten

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Though it's way too late in the development phase of GalCiv2 I'll throw my 2 cents in ...

I think FOW in galaxy sized space games is also a matter of scale. Even at our (human) current level of technology, we basically know where the stars in the galaxy are and, with some effort, we can deduce the presence of gas giants (e.g., due to oribital perturbations). With a great deal more effort we can find smaller planets (e.g., if they transit the larger objects). This is just an argument for accuracy and precision of scanning technology which is modified by how close you are to the object under examination.

(Unfortunately?) This is an argument for a range of scales in the game:
- Strategic/Empire: basically observe diplomatic zones of influence and control and *maybe* trade routes; nothing is movable as the relative speed would be too small to observe the change
- Strategic/Fleet: assigning waypoints for fleet movement (i.e., lightyear jumps) -- it would take advanced technology for one fleet to intercept another at this scale (considering how powerful the sensors would have to be)
- Tactical/System: solar system scale where planets are within practical detailed sensor range and fleets can maneuver for combat
- Tactical/Ship/Planet: direct engagement of objects like ship-to-ship, ship-to-planet, ship-to-satellite, etc.

FOW in this scenario is a dilution of detail -- the less powerful your sensors (or combined sensor net) and the further away the object under question the fewer details you have about it, nevermind seeing it at certain scale differences.

This is basically saying that there's ALWAYS a FOW in effect and unless you have a set of sensors (planetary, ship, satellite, station, probe, etc.) actively watching a piece of space, you'll probably miss something going through there. Therefore, the color of the FOW would be same color as space, i.e., in any given point at a given scale, you'll either notice something or you won't.

You can play all sorts of "games" with this type of system, e.g., the details you pull up about objects might just be their last known/scanned position (i.e., could be stale). But it'll be a lot of work and probably would turn off the more action-oriented among us.

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Perhaps the ZOI would have some insight into your FOW. For instance would the people that are under your cultular influence talk to your government about the activities in the sector. For instance say the Arcanians are heavily under your influence, have the FOW lifted in that area, due to the sympathy the people have towards your government. Perhaps it can vary according to your diplomatic levels with the alien civilizations, where the people like you more, or you have better relationships with them, the more you know what is going on with them and them with you, due to exchaging of information.

Having an idea of where the planets were out in the universe at the onset does seem realistic to a starfaring society, but to be able to see accurately the indivisual ships would require technology. Where as a general, hey I know there's a planet in that sector, perhaps wouldn't require as high of a tech, or given at the oneset of the game. I.e. you have an idea what's out there but you don't know the details.

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very interesting comments. hope stardock have a look at them.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

You will know where the stars are. But it's not likely, even by the 23rd century, that we'll know of good planets hundreds of light years away.

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I remember reading an interview on IGN.com back when GalCiv I for Windows was new. In that interview you said that you were thinking of making GalCiv II as a first person shooter that would be available to the GameCube, Playstation 2, and XBOX. What happened to those plans?

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" You will know where the stars are. But it's not likely, even by the 23rd century, that we'll know of good planets (yellow stars) hundreds of light years away. " - Draginol

" Whether the AI will know the locations of yellow stars or not is of some discussion still. " - Draginol

So whats the discussion/controversy? I think it would make for an immensely more balanced playing field if both the AI and human component had no knowledge of whether a star system had colonizable planets (ie. yellow star). In GalCiv1 it was a huge advantage to the AI to be able to send out colony ships immediately to colonizable stars while the player had to scout first and then send out colony ships or just start sending out colony ships to all stars prior to knowing their color (habitable status).

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vantage for the AI.
Thanks, gherardo

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I too have to agree about the limiting the AI knowing where things are in advance. Personally I really hate the initial 'rush' for things in my area of the map and inbetween, it would be nice to have the AI on even grounds or the option to switch this 'higher knowledge off'.

It would really heighten the game IMHO if I know where things are in my territory before the AI does. I think it may add to gameplay if the AI's miss things until later on when they have scouted. It would give the opportunity for the occasional more relaxed game too, that can slowly build up to a slugging match. I also like the idea of eliminating those scouts and having a real impact on the AI's ability to know where I am in the lead up to early wars. However like I said above an option would allow you to choose your poison and play against all seeing aliens or not.

Perhaps a race as ancient as the dread lords may know a lot of suitable yellow suns already, then again maybe not if they slept/disappeared so log ago many hadn't formed. However the other race having a major advantage for many players (especially new) can be a turn off. I know because I tried to bring a couple of people into playing the game and that one sticking point really ruined it for them.

As for influence in unexplored areas does that count as your culture leaking into the unknown through other means (smugglers, freelance traders etc) because I certainly like the idea of second hand trade that spreads the initial cultures civilisation/products even if it was to be at a vastly reduced effect.

I'm hoping that colours such as fog of war could be configured in a config file? perhaps not... just an idea to allow players who like to mod or want brighter/different colours the ability to tweak a game to their personal taste .

Anyway just some random thoughts, hopefully masterfully disguised as a post!

thanks for reading.

Regards,
Sty

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When I found out the AI knew where the yellow stars are I pretty much stopped playing GalCiv. It just encourages generating a map, playing a few turns so you can find out where the yellow stars are and then reloading your game from the start so you can act just like the AI does, and from the forums I read that appears to be how the game is played. That's after spending a couple of minutes generating a good map in the first place. It's like those rubber-banding racing games where you're kicking the whole pack's ass and suddenly three cars overtake you because the AI doesn't play by the same rules you do.

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It just encourages generating a map, playing a few turns so you can find out where the yellow stars are and then reloading your game from the start so you can act just like the AI does,

It could be shorter: in january 2178, save the game, activate cheat code, reveal the map (too see where AI is), get all techs (to have stellar cartography) and analyze the tactical map to see if you want to play the map.

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I think it might be good to have zones of influence only extend as far as you can see or have already explored; it makes sense that an empire wouldn't have that much influence over something it can't see or somewhere it's never been.

I agree. I hate it that influence spreads out of nowhere and some people you've never even seen suddenly become part of your empire (or conversely, people who can't ever see your planets suddenly take them over.
This would have a drawback, however, which is it'd let you know the area of space charted by the other players by looking at the influence map.
One nice solution would be to have your cultural influence automatically chart the space. You'd retain fog of war there (need drones/planets/ships to get rid of it) but you could see anywhere your influence expands. thus if there are planets under your influencem you know they are there.
Of course influence would absolutely have to be saved, not the way it was in Galciv, where it was regenerated from scratch after a save, thus potentially wrecking the game at every open.

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The main problem with Fog Of War constructs is that they pretend a player doesn't know where the inhabitable stars are.

FACT: The player DOES know. This knowledge is timeless. There is no point in trying to hide the value of the planets from a player; it is silly to do so.

Fog Of War only truly applies to knowledge that changes over time. Where the enemy has deployed his forces. What stuff is currently built on a given world. For this kind of information, FOW applies.

Please don't make us reload a save-game; it's self-deceiving and ruins some of the fun.

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" You will know where the stars are. But it's not likely, even by the 23rd century, that we'll know of good planets (yellow stars) hundreds of light years away. " - Draginol

After some thoughs, I find this statement a little strange: unless I am mistaken, we currently can determine the color of particular star.
But I agree, knowing if there are habitable planets around them is another thing. I guess the problem lies in the fact that yellow = good planet. Even if we don't where are good planets, we surely know where are the yellow stars.

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Since nothing will prevent the human player to use the save and reload mechanism to know where all goods stars are, I think it will be a more balanced decision to allow all players (Human and AI) to know where the good stars are, than to let them in ignorance. An human player will always found a way to know the location of good stars and get an advantage over the AI.

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