Primitive alphas and betas » Forum Post by Frogboy

Quoting landisaurus,

OH MAN! somebody said it! SCRUM! I never actually thought I would hear it outside EA or some other big company like that where they have consultants tell project leads how to manage their development processes

The place I work has 30 people, development team of 10 (total - includes testers, BA and a team lead) and they use Agile.

cheers,

Kul

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From what I have understood through reading Blizzard and Valve interviews, a game which isn't featurecomplete is in alpha. Beta stage is when the design is done. (This is from what I have understood).

So does Stardock have different opinions on what beta and alpha stage mean or do you just think beta sounds better..?

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Quoting Campaigner,

reply 2

From what I have understood through reading Blizzard and Valve interviews, a game which isn't featurecomplete is in alpha. Beta stage is when the design is done. (This is from what I have understood).

So does Stardock have different opinions on what beta and alpha stage mean or do you just think beta sounds better..?

There is no actual 'standards' for that kind of thing, no one has ever gotten around to writing one universal standard for everyone. The general concensus is that alpha is incomplete, and beta feature-complete with bughunting the focus... and SD doesn't really care for general concensus, afterall the general concensus is that you need DRM to survive

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yeah. Logically alpha just means 1st attempt and beta means 2nd. As our friend Ron L says, there really isn't any standard other than the definition of the word.

That also being said, yeah, beta generally means MOST of the game is complete. I'd challange you to find a game that ever has its design 'complete' on all levels. You can ask most game designers "if you could, would you change something?" and they likely would tell you yes. Many games continue design after launch. That is why patches come out that add new things, like new heroes for warcraft 3 or new units and traps for dungeon keeper. So design is never "done"

However, that being said, a beta is expected to show something that is similar to the final product. And it will be, since when the beta comes out we can assume that we are actually stress-testing a version of the final game. Its an incomplete versino of the final game, but it is a VERSION of the final game. An alpha could be who knows what. Proven concept or something. a beta is closer to finished than alpha... as per definition

The only people who I would think would actually say design is done is either really arogant, or has a huge corporate stick up their bum.

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I would prefer that the first few beta tests used nothing but programmer art.

I want 100% of the focus to be on whatever feedback you are looking for.

In the Demigod Beta I'm not sure what sort of feedback you are looking for right now. There is so much discussion on ballance but I don't think that is what you want.

If in Beta 2.4 you only want feedback on the battle engine set it up so that when we load the game we start off in a battle with two random armies. When the battle is over we get two options, quit or fight another battle. That way you get the focused testing you want.

Sammual

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I second the focused testing. Releasing things like the unit creation interface, battle engine and even packs of concept art allows us to zoom in and spot the little problems and improvements. Once people are familiar with each facet of gameplay you can stick them all together and look for any flaws that arise between them.

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I agree that the basic game mechanics are the most important thing when starting.

However, I did think you would be able to order your troops around on the battlefield, not just clicking "attack" on the cloth map. And this seems rather basic for the game experience.

I must also say that already games like Dom 3 and AoWSM are quite good (although far from perfect) if you forget about some bad graphics and movement problems. So, let's hope Elemental will be a step forward from that, also for the eye.

The problem with such a basic cloth map beta is not that it wouldnt be useful, its just that it wont give you the kind of kick you are waiting for after having paid the full retail price already some months ago (and we are still far from June indeed ...)

Reading through most posts above I must say that this forum is starting more and more to lack any real exchanges of views. But why post and post and post if it's just to second anything and every detail proposed because SD is your preferred company? Although SD IS my preferred company I wont be that easy - you grow not only by praise but also (and often even more) by challenges...!

But as long as the final version looks great I wont complain.

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What is there to argue about? Dev Journals are about letting the player know what is going on. We don't really have anything to add to these threads, we just comment on what they are about.

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Quoting the Gorgon,

reply 7

But why post and post and post if it's just to second anything and every detail proposed because SD is your preferred company? Although SD IS my preferred company I wont be that easy - you grow not only by praise but also (and often even more) by challenges...!

Well, maybe some people here are of the same mindset as Stardock's. Or maybe Stardock is only trying to do what they know that people (mostly) wants (even if they weren't conscious yet).

If Stardock were to annouce that Elemental would include Securom, you bet that people here won't agree with them...

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Quoting the Gorgon,

reply 7

However, I did think you would be able to order your troops around on the battlefield, not just clicking "attack" on the cloth map. And this seems rather basic for the game experience.

Erm. Just because tactical combat what be present in the first betas doesn't mean it won't be present. Tactical combat will be in the game.

Quoting the Gorgon,

reply 7

The problem with such a basic cloth map beta is not that it wouldnt be useful, its just that it wont give you the kind of kick you are waiting for after having paid the full retail price already some months ago (and we are still far from June indeed ...)

Even if you already preordered, you have not already paid. You will only be charged once the beta becomes available. And if you preordered so that you could "get a kick" out of the beta it gives you access to, your expectations are misguided. Stardock has no obligation to make betas fun, or comprehensive. In fact their preliminary betas tend to be bare-boned and somewhat frustrating. The point of the beta is not so that beta testers can have fun, but so that beta testers can provide feedback in order for Stardock to improve the game. That is the only reason.

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Well, maybe some people here are of the same mindset as Stardock's. Or maybe Stardock is only trying to do what they know that people (mostly) wants (even if they weren't conscious yet).

As a matter of fact I'm quite sure they often post when they are not so sure about what people think, that's sort of the main usefulness of the forum for the game developer.

And well, if there is nothing to add, why add anything?

Sorry, I'll leave it with that

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As a matter of fact I'm quite sure they often post when they are not so sure about what people think, that's sort of the main usefulness of the forum for the game developer.

Exactly, they want to know what the community thinks.. and that includes if we happen to agree with them They can't just assume that a lack of posts signals agreement as it could just as easily mean a lack of interest entirely.

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I would say lack of posts PROBABLY would indicate lack of interest. If it is something people love you will get cheers, and if not you will get jeers. Silence I think is the last thing they want!

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Looking forward to playing on the "cloth" map. I like the idea of starting there and seeing the game build upon that when it moves closer to launch.

Since i've played games with ASCII I think i'll be fine anyway

+1

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+893

Since i've played games with ASCII I think i'll be fine anyway

One of the first "computer games" I played was a runtime generated maze that was printed out on green and white banded paper made of 'I's and '_'s on a dasy-wheel printer. It ran off a Radio Shack cassette recorder.

good time!

The map is fine by me.

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I'm game to playing cloth first. I'm most interested, though, in getting my hands on the various builders. I guess I never out-grew legos...

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Quoting Ynglaur,

reply 16

I'm game to playing cloth first. I'm most interested, though, in getting my hands on the various builders. I guess I never out-grew legos...

That's the second time legos have been brought up on these forums. I love legos!

/Off-topic

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Quoting landisaurus,

reply 22

OH MAN! somebody said it! SCRUM! I never actually thought I would hear it outside EA or some other big company like that where they have consultants tell project leads how to manage their development processes

SCRUM, at least in Oregon, seems to be fairly typical at anything other than big companies. Clearly your experience with it is poor, but as something of a semi-expert on software development processes (17 years as an engineer and got my Masters focused on design and software process) I can pretty safely say that SCRUM as it's meant to be run is a really good way to manage a project with nebulous features. Game development fits that pretty well as features are thrown in and out as what is "fun" is figured out.

Good companies find a process that fits their development. Good process is a tool and like any tool it only works if used properly, which only works if you have a good company. Bad companies corrupt and screw up every process. Sadly, bad companies are the norm.

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ASCII!!!! man, yeah we should not even have map, we should have all ASCI beyond the basic UI

@ could be a town

H is a hero
C is a channeler
c is a catapult
M a monster lair
m is a test generic monster
D is a dragon
d is a 'dude' generic unit
S is a war ship
s is a skeleton
N is a shard (node)
n is a naga
k is a knight unit
B is bear cavarly
b is a bugbear (fantastic creature)
Z is a zombie

We could upgrade from old games and do things like add underlines and bold. Bold to show what is selected

(man, I'm going to go home and play Moria ! )

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Don't forget to make the Beta pre-order available to PayPal users.

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Quoting pndrev,

reply 20

Don't forget to make the Beta pre-order available to PayPal users.

I believe it is availible to Paypal users but you can only use Paypal to pay for something no more than two weeks in advance of the payment being executed. Since you are changed only once you gain access to the beta you can only use Paypal to pre-order two weeks before the beta is launched. This is what a moderator on the Demigod forum told some users. If this is not the case I apologize for leading you astray.

On a seperate note. I am all for primative betas. The idea is to help the developers make a better game and not necesarily to have a great gaming experiance while doing it.

I will say, however, that I started doing SD betas with Sins of a Solar Empire and I have had a blast with every one since. Keep up the great work.

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With Elemental, we may drive the point home by having the first beta of the game only use the cloth map instead of the actual game engine for game play. The idea is, if it's a good game, it should be reasonably fun even without fancy graphics. Then for once we could get people to fixate on the key features of the game rather than piddly details.

Awesome. I don't want graphics. I just finished an ADOM game (I died of course). Cloth is huge. Great. Gorgeous.

Graphics can come in later. Way better to focus on testing gameplay. :b:

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Considering that I always play GalCivII in the icon view and have battle animations disabled... why would you even want to add more graphics then just the cloth map?

Besides the cloth map looks very pleasing to the eye (not the mess that CivIV is when zoomed out...) so I'm really looking forward to play the bare-bone beta.

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In both Sins and GalCiv, I do all or almost all my actual playing at the icon-view level; I only zoom in when I want to see the pretty. I say go for it.

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Quoting Nathaniel Richter,

reply 21

Quoting pndrev, reply 20Don't forget to make the Beta pre-order available to PayPal users.
I believe it is availible to Paypal users but you can only use Paypal to pay for something no more than two weeks in advance of the payment being executed. Since you are changed only once you gain access to the beta you can only use Paypal to pre-order two weeks before the beta is launched. This is what a moderator on the Demigod forum told some users. If this is not the case I apologize for leading you astray.

On a seperate note. I am all for primative betas. The idea is to help the developers make a better game and not necesarily to have a great gaming experiance while doing it.

I will say, however, that I started doing SD betas with Sins of a Solar Empire and I have had a blast with every one since. Keep up the great work.

SD isn't capable of delaying payment via pay-pal to a later date (arguments erupt on whether paypal isn't capable, or SD isn't set up, so I'm not touching that one -- SD insists the former) so they can't use paypal except at, and immediately after, the release of a beta. During a (usually 2-week) window after opening a beta cycle (beta 1, beta 2, etc etc) SD allows people to get in 'instantly' -- you pay, you get in. Otherwise, you have to wait for the next (at the moment, we're talking first elemental) beta cycle to start up and use that window.

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