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In the Islamic world G-d is in schools. How much better are they doing?

In the US G-d is a lore more present in some states than in others. But we have see that those states are also more immoral than the more secular states.

So what made you ignore all these facts and repeat your oft-disproven claim as if it was fact?

 

God does say it's his to give vengenance and not our place. He's God after all but that's not what's happening here. It's more God letting us have our way. If you get a chance read Deut 28. It shows us a picture of what happens when we trust and listen to God vs what happens when we choose to turn our back on him. It's like reading the news today.



I, as well as Lula, do not believe the Islamic God (Allah) is the same God of the bible. I do not believe the Jews God and the Arab's God are one and the same.



So do you have facts to back this up? What states are secular? What states are Godly? I don't think God is partial to certain states over others. God blesses his people wherever they are.....in an immoral state or not.

Hate to disappoint you. It's the same god.

Abraham taught both his children about the one true god, and both children and their descendants believed. Muhammed was a descendant of Ishmael and believed in the same god as Isaac and Ishmael did. So far none of this has anything to do with "Islam" in the Muhammedan sense. Ishmaelis believed in the same god as the Israelites.

There were many gods Semitic tribes believed in, among them the Creator, the only real god, the god ultimately known by His name and by "El" (Alpha Lamed, also simply means "god") and "Elohim" (Alpha Lamed Heh Yud Mem, this is a plural of Aleph Lamed Heh) in Hebrew and "Allah" (short for Aleph Lamed Aleph Lamed Heh, with the first Aleph Lamed being the definite article and Aleph Lamed Heh being the word) in Arabic. Hebrew-speaking Jews refer to Him as "Elohim", Arabic-speaking Jews, Muslims, and Christians refer to Him as "Allah".

At some point Muhammed, the Ishmaeli, believed he was a new prophet. His prophecy, later written down in the Qur'an (from the root Quf Resh Aleph, meaning "read" or "happen" with "Qur'an" meaning "recitation"), confirmed many of the stories in the Bible, not because G-d told Muhammed, but simply because Muhammed already believed in Adam and Eve, in Noah, and in Moses and the exodus.

However, the god Muhammed believed in and the god Muhammed thought he was a prophet of is that same god Jews and Ishmaelis (and many other Semitic tribes and peoples) and Christians worshipped.

I don't know where the legend that it's not the same god comes from, but it's simply not possible because a) Abraham taught both his children about the one true G-d, the words in Hebrew and Arabic simply don't allow for another interpretation, and c) there is no other (real) god, which means that even if Muhammed was not a prophet, the god he THOUGHT he received his prophecy from MUST have been the same god as the Jewish and Christian god.

However, there is another Semitic people (or sect) called the Mandaeans who also believe in Adam and Eve and Noah but not Moses and the exodus (don't know their stance on Abraham) and they believe that the god of Adam and Noah is NOT the god of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed (but I think they do believe in John the Baptist as a prophet but I might be wrong on that). The Mandaeans speak Aramaic, I think. I believe "Manda" means "knowledge" in Aramaic. (In Hebrew "Mada" (Mem Dalet Ayin) means "knowledge", the missing "n" could be a regular consonant shift, I don't know.)

So if you ask me if I believe in the one true god, the Semitic creator god "El" or "Elohim", the god of Abraham and the god of Moses, I will say that, yes, I do.

But if you believe in that same god or not, I cannot tell. Abraham did, Isaac did, Ishmael did, Moses did, Muhammed did, and I do.

I really don't care if you worship the same god or not (who cares what gods other people worship anyway, as long as such worship doesn't involve ugly sacrifices?), but I won't let you modify my G-d just because you want to exclude one half of Abraham's children and show such disrespect to Abraham.

If you worship a god who is not spelt Aleph Lamed Heh and who is not the god of Ishmael, you are not worshipping the same god as Isaac and Moses.

You can clearly read in the Bible that Abraham's covenant with G-d covered both Isaac and Ishmael (who was 13 at the time). In fact, I seem to recall that Isaac was even born when the covenant was made.

I assume you both know what the sign of that covenant was and is and that it is practiced by Jews as well as Ishmaelis and all who follow the religion founded (or re-affirmed, depending on what you believe) by the most well-known Ishmaeli after Ishmael.

These things are not coincidence.

You must stop using the word "Allah" as if it were a name. "Allah" is simply the Arab word for "god" (with a definite article attached, as is proper per Arab grammar). Arabs and Jews happen to refer to god by the same word because Arabic and Hebrew are so closely related. If "Allah" is different from "god", then so is the Hebrew "Elohim" because it's the same as the Arabic.

Incidentally, all this stuff about the holy language and everything, THAT is something I would like to see taught in schools.

Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be what "Christians" have in mind when they call for bringing G-d into schools.

Who cares about teaching actual knowledge from the Bible when there is so much knowledge in other subjects that we can take away by bringing G-d into schools!

LEAUKI POSTS:

Leauki,

The only thing in my article I claim are facts are the Supreme Court decisions and the dates they occurred. As far as the list of towns, states and dates that violent crime occurred in public schools, I think that list is accurate.

The rest are logical conclusions that could be drawn from taking prayer and God out of public schools.

My goodness even the US Congress opens everyday with a prayer...why would the Supreme Court of the land take that away from children in schools if it wasn't for some crazy, Marxist ideological bent...like secular or atheistic humanism?

Have you ever really considered the power of prayer? It works. With prayer, we cannot fail. Many of the original Founders of the US did and even though public schools didn't exist back then, I can't imagine for a minute they would object. Even General George Patton understood the importance of prayer. He often had prayers printed on cards and sent to every man in his Army.

He is quoted as saying, "There are three ways that men get what they want: by planning, by working, and by praying.... But between the plan and the operation there is always an unknown. That unkown spells defeat or victory success or failure. It is the reaction of the actors to the ordeal when it actually comes. Some people call that getting the breaks. I call it God. God has His part, or margin in everything. That's where prayer comes in."

As far as I'm concerned the same thing with our children during the school day. It's good for them to be able to start the day with a prayer...for God to come into every part of their daily life and as Gen. Patton said, "do His part". Well, now Almighty God has been told by the powers that be in the US government that He's no longer wanted, no longer needed, no longer necessary....that man can do it all himself.

Basmas,

Of course. And teen pregnancy rates are also lower in Europe. And they are in lower in US states that are not part of the Bible Belt.

As I said, I don't know the correlation between murder and "Christianity", but there is a clear correlation between teen pregnancy and "Christianity".

Since the US are a secular state, I suppose that IF they start teaching G-d, they could use any religion or god, with no particular reason to choose (a certain brand of) "Christianity".

I suggest Hinduism.

It's a fascinating religion and culture and it would certainly help to learn more about it.

But if it has to be a Semitic god, I would be for Baal. The Phoenician city-god has been so sadly ignored ever since his last believers died in north-west-Africa. And we only remember him in his role as unimportant mock-god.

No, I haven't. How did they do that?

I have heard stories about Muslims being allowed to pray in American state schools, but I hadn't heard anything about the Suprene Court permitting them to do so.

Personally, I have nothing against teaching religion in school in principle. I just see three problems with this current discussion:

1. US law specifically prohibits the teaching of religion in state schools and I do NOT advocate the breaking of a law or the changing of a law to benefit a certain group that are supposed to enjoy the same rights and limits as all other groups or the open rebellion against the spirit of the supreme law if such is advocated.

2. I can see that this particular brand of "Christianity" would not teach morality as much as ban science from the class room.

3. I can see that this particular brand of "Christianity" if not causes than at least creates an environment in which immorality thrives.

From what I can see beinging G-d back into schools under the proposed terms would transform America into a lawless, immoral, and backwards country.

And all the "Christians" have to offer in terms of explanation is that the law is wrong, that the immorality simply won't happen (even though in the Bible Belt it does), and that evolution is wrong because idiots can't understand it (as evidenced by the fact that they use the term "random chance" to explain a process that isn't and the terms "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" as if evolution saw such a distinction).

Thats because Jewish people didn't go around cutting off peoples heads and blowing up embassays if you offended them or didn't accomdate their religion.

Muslims don't do that either.

I see this more as a case of "Vorauseilender Gehorsam". (There is only a German definition for the term for ironic reasons.)

"Vorauseilender Gehorsam" means the voluntary submission to the perceived wishes or commands of an individual or a group. In this case Islamic fundamentalists were understood as representing Islam and (presumably liberal) politicians are trying to do what they want as quickly as possible. The same mechanism showed in Germany in the 1930s. Sometimes the Nazi party themselves had to undo some quick changes!

There is a reason why so many American politicians (usually liberals) keep talking to crazy groups like Cair and pretend that submitting to insane fundamentalists has something to do with respecting other cultures.

Something similar also happened in Sweden (I think) and Britain (if memory serves) with piggy banks and Teddy pigs. Social activists (liberal such) tried to outlaw anything pig-related because it might offend Muslims. It took Muslim groups weeks to repair the damage and explain to stupid Britons that pigs do NOT offend Muslims and that any action taken against Teddy pigs is complete nonsense.

However, Muslim fundamentalists used the opportunity to support the pig ban and paint the non-fundamentalist organisations as un-Islamic.

Orthodox (and some non-orthodox) Jews are known not to buy products that are not certified kosher. Most Muslims do the same with halal foods. I eat in kosher restaurants when there is one available and usually buy products with a halal certificate since kosher certs don't really exist in Ireland.

Just the other day the Pakistani working in the shop next to my office reminded me that the turkey they sold was not certified halal and whether I really wanted it anyway. He also makes sure that the cheese or turkey I get for my sandwiches doesn't get mixed up with ham on the meat bar. (I wouldn't want pieces of ham in my turkey.)

The Arab butcher next to my house signals me when I walk past his shop when the halal (turkey) salami comes in every two weeks.

The only kosher supermarket in Dublin is far from my house.

Leauki,

Please enlighten me. Where exactly in the US Constition is the requirement to keep religion and state separate?

 

Well that really depends on what you think is more immoral, having fun that harms no one but oneself (and even the likelihood of that can be reduced substantially), or bringing a child that you cannot care for properly into this world.